D&D 5E Followup on "Everyone Starts at First Level"

[Tony Vargas]

And note: I am not talking about being 2 levels below the rest of the party. I'm talking about being 8 or 12 or more levels below the rest of the party. Sure, levels 1 to 3 level pretty quickly, but it's months and months or even a year or more of suckage when there are 12 levels between PCs.

Many years ago, I was commitedly ES@1, and faced with needing to add new players to a long-established campaign. After some discussion, I ended up starting the new players at 1, having some of the existing players who's characters were well ahead in exp for various reasons start 'secondary' characters at 1st, and leaving one player who was lagging the other his existing (fighter/magic-user/thief, so /very/ slowly advancing at that point) character. With one higher-level character helping them out, the new party rocketed to adequate level to join the main group with no PC deaths, yet the new characters did have some chance to develop. They also completed a reasonably good story arc starting with hunting vermin in a city's catacomb, and ending with uncovering and defeating an ancient outlaw cult of a God of Hate.

So even huge level gaps can be worked around.

 

[practicalm]

I was bringing in characters at EL1 but after the longest running players hit level 6, I started bring in characters at higher levels. It wasn't as much fun for the new characters being so far behind. For someone who is very new I bring them in slightly lower but then move them up after they have had a chance to play and get comfortable with roleplaying and their character.

 

[KarinsDad]

Many years ago, I was commitedly ES@1, and faced with needing to add new players to a long-established campaign. After some discussion, I ended up starting the new players at 1, having some of the existing players who's characters were well ahead in exp for various reasons start 'secondary' characters at 1st, and leaving one player who was lagging the other his existing (fighter/magic-user/thief, so /very/ slowly advancing at that point) character. With one higher-level character helping them out, the new party rocketed to adequate level to join the main group with no PC deaths, yet the new characters did have some chance to develop. They also completed a reasonably good story arc starting with hunting vermin in a city's catacomb, and ending with uncovering and defeating an ancient outlaw cult of a God of Hate.

So even huge level gaps can be worked around.

Precisely. You worked around it. You did not use it as advertised.

 

[neobolts]

Many years ago, I was commitedly ES@1, and faced with needing to add new players to a long-established campaign. After some discussion, I ended up starting the new players at 1, having some of the existing players who's characters were well ahead in exp for various reasons start 'secondary' characters at 1st, and leaving one player who was lagging the other his existing (fighter/magic-user/thief, so /very/ slowly advancing at that point) character. With one higher-level character helping them out, the new party rocketed to adequate level to join the main group with no PC deaths, yet the new characters did have some chance to develop. They also completed a reasonably good story arc starting with hunting vermin in a city's catacomb, and ending with uncovering and defeating an ancient outlaw cult of a God of Hate.

So even huge level gaps can be worked around.

The DMG goes on to mention this exact approach.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The DMG goes on to mention this exact approach.

I'm sure someone on staff was doing it 25+ years ago, just like I and many other old-school DMs were.

 

[Sunseeker]

With that criteria, so is the PHB and the Monster Manual.

If we're going by the standard that everything needed to play the game is included in the Starter Set or even simpler, the free rules PDF, yes, the PHB and the MM are optional. Generally speaking, more rules are always optional rules.

 

[aramis erak]

[MENTION=2011]KarinsDad[/MENTION]:
English lesson for you: the word "may" is an axiomatic indicator of something being non-requisite, or in other words, optional. "Shall", "will" or "must" are the indicators of obligatory action. "May not" is an exclusion prohibition. The quoth bit in the PHB is an explicit option, because it uses the word "may". "Can" also indicates non-requisite action, with "should" being non-requisite but recommended.

Rules lesson for you: Adventurer's League play still doesn't use 98% of the DMG (by page count), allowing explicitly the encounter balance (81-84, but which, aside from 1 paragraph, are replicated in the DMBR) and the grid rules. (249-251), plus those sections duplicated in the DM's Basic Rules (which are much of chapter 8 anyway). The adventures obviously use the section on social interaction (244-245), which provides a good guideline for social checks, and which En2otA explicitly calls out as allowed.

So, since the DMG isn't actually used, it's CLEARLY optional. And the DMG is explicitly noted as optional in the DDALPG_EEv1.pdf. (p. 10)

The PHB is not required for AL play - but it's not optional in the same sense as the DMG, either. A player with a PHB-only class or spell should expect to bring their PHB to AL games. The DM isn't allowed to disallow it, but the PHB isn't required for play. (All the actual non-class rules and most of the spells are in the PBR).

 

[Aribar]

So I've got a question since I don't understand the appeal of starting at level 1 (outside of it being easier for newbies), even after reading through this thread... Why do people say it denies you the opportunity of knowing what your character did at low levels? Why can't that just be written into the backstory? If you like low-level adventures, why play at a medium or high level? Or if you like characters coming into their own or having their own arc, why not choose something appropriate or neat for that level range?

Edit: Just wondering since these are things I've tried to ask DMs in the past when I've been (in my opinion) penalized for dying by starting at a lower level. Never got adequate answers and usually stop playing then.

 

[Tony Vargas]

So I've got a question since I don't understand the appeal of starting at level 1 (outside of it being easier for newbies), even after reading through this thread...

This probably isn't going to help, but 1st level characters are so fragile, they may not be that easy for newbies, either. Too unforgiving for the learning curve.

The main appeal is simply that it's intuitive.

Why do people say it denies you the opportunity of knowing what your character did at low levels?

What you play through may be different from what you imagine, but, it's also a matter of becoming familiar with the character and making level-up choices in sequence instead of putting multiple levels of advancement together in one 'build.'

Why can't that just be written into the backstory? If you like low-level adventures, why play at a medium or high level? Or if you like characters coming into their own or having their own arc, why not choose something appropriate or neat for that level range?

No reason not to do any of those, if everyone's on board - especially the DM.

 

[Sunseeker]

This probably isn't going to help, but 1st level characters are so fragile, they may not be that easy for newbies, either. Too unforgiving for the learning curve.

The main appeal is simply that it's intuitive.

Agreed, if your new level 1s are too easily defeated, then you may be in for quite a series of new level 1s. Constantly creating new characters is rarely particularly fun.

Level 3 is not substantially less intuitive than level 1. In fact level 1 may be less intuitive than level 3, since after learning how to play your class, you are then tossed a handful of new features from your class features!

What you play through may be different from what you imagine, but, it's also a matter of becoming familiar with the character and making level-up choices in sequence instead of putting multiple levels of advancement together in one 'build.'

I think one can be both very familiar with "builds" as well as more organic forms of character creation. Everyone is wired a little differently. Still, a build can come before, or after a series of level ups, be "built" at the table, or at home. Some players are open to organic character construction, some are not, nothing can be done about it, no point in trying.