D&D 5E Can Someone Please Clarify Surprise?

[Reynard]

Combats in 5e tend to be 2-4 rnds so having two rounds of actions before an enemy can act makes combats go even more quickly.

Features versus bugs.

I like that surprise is such a game changer. It means PCs have to be diligent and it ramps up the tension. Moving through the rubble strewn, monster haunted halls of a decrepit tomb or hacking a path through a dark forest in which literally everything that lives there wants to kill you should require hyper awareness and be exhausting. Let your guard drop for just a moment and BAM -- you are kobold chow.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Great, thanks very much, Iosue. One last question re: surprise. Is it possible to make one perception roll for a whole group of adversaries/mooks to see if they're all surprised (as you might make one roll with initiative) or do you need to roll separately for each mook?

Thanks!

I like to break up surprise checks by the same groupings that I would use for initiative. So if there were six goblins, two bugbear overseers, and an ogre boss, I would make one check for all the goblins, one for all the bugbears, and one for the ogre.

 

[pontinyc]

I like that, makes sense. Thanks again to all for the replies!

 

[Riley37]

Surprise happens when you're typing at your keyboard and you don't notice the

 

[KarinsDad]

Thanks for the reply, Tormyr. So just to clarify, the order of things goes as follows:

1.) PC's sneak up on adversaries and their Stealth rolls beat the adversaries passive perception (or perception rolls if they have someone on guard, for example).
2.) The PC's attack, damage is figured, etc.
3.) The adversaries are unable to move or act in any way as a result of the attack because we're still in the first round.
4.) Initiative is rolled.
5.) Round two begins and combat continues using initiative order.

Does that seem right? Thanks for any thoughts!

In addition to initiative being rolled before the surprise round, I also often have the sneaking party do a group stealth check and find out the "midpoint" roll (actually, we have 6 PCs, so I use the average between the 3rd best and the 4th best if the PCs are the ones trying to be sneaky). I then roll perception for each member of the non-surprised group so that typically some of them are surprised and some are not surprised. Any creature who rolls perception equal or above the midpoint is not surprised.

This is a house rule, but then again, the rules for stealth and surprise tend to be a bit sparse as is.

Surprise is extremely powerful. It's easily the equivalent (or more) of dropping a deadly encounter to tough, or a medium encounter to easy. So I prefer that some creatures in the surprised group are not necessarily surprised (and by rolling, I make sure that it is not always the BBEG, but sometimes the mooks instead). The concept of everyone on one side being surprised seems extremely artificial.

 

[wedgeski]

Surprise is extremely powerful. It's easily the equivalent (or more) of dropping a deadly encounter to tough, or a medium encounter to easy. So I prefer that some creatures in the surprised group are not necessarily surprised (and by rolling, I make sure that it is not always the BBEG, but sometimes the mooks instead). The concept of everyone on one side being surprised seems extremely artificial.

That isn't the rule though. Surprise is applied per-combatant, not per-side.

 

[Paraxis]

Two things a lot of people tend to ignore about surprise but they shouldn't.

If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other.

So unless there are actions being taken to be stealthy no one is surprised.

Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.

If you walk into a room and notice a single threat, you are not surprised. So if 3 goblins, 2 hobgoblins, and a bugbear wait in ambush as long as you notice the least stealthy creature you are not surprised because you know a threat to your safety is here.

Group stealth checks make this much easier.

 

[KarinsDad]

That isn't the rule though. Surprise is applied per-combatant, not per-side.

Surprise is Dex Stealth check per hiding foe vs. passive perception of all creatures being surprised.

This rule as written typically fails about 90+% of the time for a 5 PC party. As a general rule of thumb (since foes tend to have similar passive perceptions), 10% of the time everyone on the opposing side is surprised, 0% of the time some of the opposing side is surprised (some is not), and 90% of the time nobody on the opposing side is surprised. So, not only is it rare that anyone is surprised, but it's an all or nothing thing which obviously does not make a lot of sense. So your point about it being per combatant means little.


Simple example. 5 PCs. None of them are wearing heavy armor (to make the example simple, but obviously heavy armor makes stealth even more difficult). All of the PCs took the stealth skill (again, to make the example simple, but obviously this does not always happen at every table) and everyone has Dex 14 (again, doesn't always happen).

5 PCs with +4 to Stealth vs. a group of goblins with passive perception 9. All 5 players have to roll a 5 on the dice or higher. The percentage chance of doing that are 32.768%. So, 2 times in 3, the PCs fail at this. In a party of fairly stealthy PCs against dumb creatures that are the opposite of perceptive.


Now 1 in 3 sounds like good odds, but I stacked the deck there. Very few tables have parties that are this stealthy and are fighting foes that are this dense.


Let's change it to a more typical group of 4th level PCs against the same goblins. 2 PCs are in heavy armor and have Dex 12 (one trained in stealth to offset disadvantage a little, one not trained), 1 trained PC has Dex 18, 1 trained PC with Dex 14 and 1 untrained PC with Dex 14 (heavy Dex party, 3 PCs trained). The foes are a group of Drow with passive perception 12.

The chances are: 56.25% * 42.25% * 90% * 80% * 70% = 12%.


Now let's use a group of Drow with passive perception 12 (a mere 3 points higher): 36% * 25% * 75% * 65% * 55% = 2.4%. One time in 41, it's worth rolling the dice.

Why is the table even rolling dice at all for something that will happen 2.4% to 12% of the time? The rules are practically not usable. The players will give up on stealth as a general rule because it works so infrequently.

And in these two examples, the foes have the same passive perception, so it's an all or nothing thing.


Yes, the rules here are simple, but they just aren't very fun. Hence the reason I changed them. Using the group stealth rules with passive perception means that the party will succeed more often (again, still all or nothing with these examples) and using group stealth with active perception rolls means that the party is successful a lot, but only for some of the foes. Some of the foes are not surprised, some are.

The same applies for NPCs trying to surprise PCs. The game is a lot more fun if some of the PCs can react to the ambushing monsters than if the entire party is just sitting there taking it on the chin for at least a full round before anyone can act.


So, your per-combatant point (for the stealthy side) is true, but it's not very true for the other side where as a general rule (i.e. a very high percentage of the time), everyone is surprised or nobody is.

The stealth rules as written are basically only good with a very small PC party (3 or less) or when the DM sends a very small ambush against the PCs (again, 3 or less foes).

 

[Paraxis]

It makes things easier if you use group checks for the characters or groups of enemies who are trying to be stealthy and surprise.

GROUP CHECKS

When a number of individuals are trying to accomplish something as a group, the DM might ask for a group ability check. In such a situation, the characters who are skilled at a particular task help cover those who aren’t.

To make a group ability check, everyone in the group makes the ability check. If at least half the group succeeds, the whole group succeeds. Otherwise, the group fails.

Group checks don’t come up very often, and they’re most useful when all the characters succeed or fail as a group. For example, when adventurers are navigating a swamp, the DM might call for a group Wisdom (Survival) check to see if the characters can avoid the quicksand, sinkholes, and other natural hazards of the environment. If at least half the group succeeds, the successful characters are able to guide their companions out of danger. Otherwise, the group stumbles into one of these hazards.

So in a party with a couple heavy armor clad warriors and a rogue expert in stealth and a couple high dex light or no armor using people it all averages out.

 

[Dausuul]

Thanks for the reply, Tormyr. So just to clarify, the order of things goes as follows:

1.) PC's sneak up on adversaries and their Stealth rolls beat the adversaries passive perception (or perception rolls if they have someone on guard, for example).
2.) The PC's attack, damage is figured, etc.
3.) The adversaries are unable to move or act in any way as a result of the attack because we're still in the first round.
4.) Initiative is rolled.
5.) Round two begins and combat continues using initiative order.

Does that seem right? Thanks for any thoughts!

Not quite. The order is:

1.) PCs sneak up on adversaries and do something to start the encounter, like attacking.
2.) Adversaries that fail to detect the PCs get the "surprised" condition. Anyone with the "surprised" condition cannot take actions or reactions.
3.) Everyone rolls initiative.
4.) Combatants take their turns in order. At the end of each combatant's turn, if it has the "surprised" condition, that condition ends on it.
5.) Proceed as normal.

In practice, the result is pretty similar to what you described, but there are certain cases where it makes a difference. For example, if an adversary won initiative over the PCs, it will get rid of the "surprised" condition before the PCs get to act. That means the adversary will be able to take reactions.