D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

[FormerlyHemlock]

"Its just a cantrip, its just a cantrip lololololol you think a cantrip can restrain a low lvl baddie for a turn

For some strange reason, the bolded text played in my head to the tune of The Killers' "Mr. Brightside."

"It was just a cantrip/It was just a cantrip". https://youtu.be/gGdGFtwCNBE?t=19

 

[Celtavian]

There's also the goblin conga line. All 23 gnolls can attack you in one round if the first one is willing to eat an opportunity attack. I would have to decide whether gnolls are smart enough to do that--they're hyena-derived, so I'd probably watch some videos of hyenas fighting to decide. Orcs don't have the right temperament to fight cooperatively like that, but hobgoblins do (except they would just shoot you instead) and scro definitely do.

Remember that Flaming Sphere has a duration of only one minute. If gnolls have any institutional knowledge at all about magic, they should know that you can sometimes just wait for it to go away. (Where there are narrow corridors, there are probably also corners behind which to lurk with total cover until the magic goes away.)

None of the above is intended as a criticism of Celtavian's DM. It's just me pointing out some of the things I deliberately don't do for monsters that aren't disciplined and well-trained. That's also why my invading army is hobgoblins and not orcs--hobgoblins are smarter and more interesting for me to run.

Now you see the beauty of the fighter/warlock and having good ranged damage. If the gnolls back off, the fighter/warlock switches to Eldritch Blast and the archer hits them with his bow. He still gets Temp Hps from downing them ranged.

 

[KarinsDad]

Now you see the beauty of the fighter/warlock and having good ranged damage. If the gnolls back off, the fighter/warlock switches to Eldritch Blast and the archer hits them with his bow. He still gets Temp Hps from downing them ranged.

But if the gnolls back off, they just go back and forth in the room on their end of the corridor shooting the PCs too. 23 shots per round. I don't get how the PCs stop this. Why can the PCs shoot at the gnolls, but the gnolls cannot shoot back. I must not be understanding the layout. Maybe you could draw it. Any why doesn't any foes ever shoot the obviously not a denizen of the place bat, in frustration if not anything else?

 

[Umbran]

Holy Crap! You just posted a video of a machine making barbed wire out of modern materials.

I guess you showed me.

Your snark, sir, was ill-considered and rude. It served no good purpose, and helped lead to what came after. Remember that the next time you are tempted to be condescending - you reap what you sow, KD.

"Its just a cantrip, its just a cantrip lololololol you think a cantrip can restrain a low lvl baddie for a turn or 2 lollolo way overpowered lolololol waaay more powerful then a fighter rolling a melee attack and killing a baddie, then moving to another in the same turn and rolling a melee wep attack and killing him lololol"

This snark was even less well conceived. We expect our users to show respect for each other, and on that you clearly and utterly fail in this post. We are going to hold you to your declaration that you are bowing to of the discussion, as you clearly cannot discuss this topic like a reasonable adult. Don't post in this thread again.

 

[KarinsDad]

I'm referring to a style that expects the DM to build encounters according to the encounter budgets listed in the Basic Rules and the DMG. E.g. rarely make Deadly encounters, follow the "adventuring day" XP budget guidelines, not use monsters with a higher CR than the player level.

Actually, I do not do this as DM. Most of the encounters are within reach of the PCs, but not all. And most of my encounters are skewed towards the moderate to deadly side of the scale because I find easy fights a waste of precious gaming time.

On the other hand, I do know for a fact (regardless of people's claims) that the DMs who prefer CaW also put limits on their encounters. None of them have a god just come down and TPK the party. All of them give the PCs a fighting chance, or at least some chance to run away. Otherwise, they would not be DMs for long.

It's just a different place in the sand where the limits are drawn and for all DMs, it's still probably a bell curve (whether centered or skewed) of difficulty. Some fights which are easier for a given group, some which are tougher. Where the bell curve lies, though, is often different from table to table.


In Celtavian's case, the PCs and the PC team are more optimized both as individuals, and as a team. So, his DM challenges him with tougher fights. His DM could challenge him in other ways: like I did when I teleported the 8 character party into 3 groups without their own equipment; or by using the shove action so that the mob of foes could actually get past the player's so carefully designed front wall; or by even having a secret tunnel from the gnoll side of the battle to the PC side and half the gnolls flood into the PC held room from a different direction.

I think that the concept of CaS vs. CaW is silly. Running away as PCs because the fight is so tough is not such a wonderful gaming experience. It might seem realistic or plausible to some players at some tables, but it really is just a minor preference in the big scheme of things. The two camps are not that different. The players still sit around telling jokes and having fun. Both groups cheer when someone does something awesome at the table. Both sides make plans for how to approach an encounter. And the PCs typically survive in both camps. The environment is just slightly different, but many aspects of the environment is different at every single table anyway. This is just one of many aspects of the environment the PCs find themselves in.

This concept that the difference is SO great and that one group of players would hate the other style is overblown. I really think that this entire concept is the remnant of edition wars and not something that really matters for most players. It might matter for some DMs and for people who frequent gaming forums, but probably not for the vast majority of players. Most of them will have fun at most tables.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Now you see the beauty of the fighter/warlock and having good ranged damage. If the gnolls back off, the fighter/warlock switches to Eldritch Blast and the archer hits them with his bow. He still gets Temp Hps from downing them ranged.

That's why I mentioned corners and total cover. You can't blast something you can't see; and if you pursue, presumably you're not in the chokepoint any longer, so retreating accomplished its purpose. It's hard to say without seeing the actual terrain of course--maybe there WERE no corners.

 

[Celtavian]

That's why I mentioned corners and total cover. You can't blast something you can't see; and if you pursue, presumably you're not in the chokepoint any longer, so retreating accomplished its purpose. It's hard to say without seeing the actual terrain of course--maybe there WERE no corners.

There was a corner and a hallway. If they retreat, you follow them and fire using the walls as cover. You whittle them down. Everything is heavily in their favor. Had the gnolls had casters, things would have been different. We would have had to adjust.

We do way more damage than they do with a better chance to hit. In a battle of attrition, the advantage is heavily slanted in our favor. Retreating is a battle of attrition.

 

[Celtavian]

But if the gnolls back off, they just go back and forth in the room on their end of the corridor shooting the PCs too. 23 shots per round. I don't get how the PCs stop this. Why can the PCs shoot at the gnolls, but the gnolls cannot shoot back. I must not be understanding the layout. Maybe you could draw it. Any why doesn't any foes ever shoot the obviously not a denizen of the place bat, in frustration if not anything else?

How do the PCs stop it? The PCs move back and forth too. We do more damage than they do with more option variety. Tell me what you think gnolls can do that is so extraordinary? If you don't understand that a party of adventures does way more damage than gnolls, I don't know what to tell you other than to reiterate we do way more damage than they do with a better chance to hit. The damage numbers are vastly in our favor.

Why would they do? The gnoll chieftain and his sons thought they could win. They stood their ground and threw down. They were dead in three or four rounds. Once they were dead, the gnolls had no chance.

There was no chance to back off. They're ranged damage is a joke compared to ours. We go back and forth around the corner exchanging arrows with 3/4 cover, they're going to die far sooner than we are using that tactic. All they do is prolong the fight.

 

[Celtavian]

There's also the goblin conga line. All 23 gnolls can attack you in one round if the first one is willing to eat an opportunity attack. I would have to decide whether gnolls are smart enough to do that--they're hyena-derived, so I'd probably watch some videos of hyenas fighting to decide. Orcs don't have the right temperament to fight cooperatively like that, but hobgoblins do (except they would just shoot you instead) and scro definitely do.

Remember that Flaming Sphere has a duration of only one minute. If gnolls have any institutional knowledge at all about magic, they should know that you can sometimes just wait for it to go away. (Where there are narrow corridors, there are probably also corners behind which to lurk with total cover until the magic goes away.)

None of the above is intended as a criticism of Celtavian's DM. It's just me pointing out some of the things I deliberately don't do for monsters that aren't disciplined and well-trained. That's also why my invading army is hobgoblins and not orcs--hobgoblins are smarter and more interesting for me to run.

Gnoll knowledge of magic consists of kill man they see casting spells.

The gnoll conga line would not be something we would ever use with any creature. Same as our players would not. Monsters know to attack what is in front of them like any warrior. Meet, clash see who wins. Looking at either side as less than creatures is not how we do it.

The only people going back and forth were the archers. We had cover relative to them due to the gnolls in front making our AC 20. They were not hitting often at all.

 

[Celtavian]

Actually, you control your DM in a different way.


Fangs have an Int of 10.

Fang: "We all stay here till magic fire run out. Then we fight."

He wasn't being touched buy the flaming sphere. Just his guys. They did retreat. The mage used his familiar to guide it down the tunnel. Suffice it to say, our tactics matched what they tried.

Alternatively, just use the Shove action. Run up and shove the Monk or Fighter 5 feet out of the way behind the other PC and move into his space. The two gnolls in front each get one shove per round. Sure, it might not happen the first round (Gnolls are pretty strong though), but sooner or later, the gnolls break through. Narratively, 23 Gnolls of 14 and greater strength just push through the line of the Monk and Fighter. Mechanically, the two gnolls in front push the a PC 5 feet back behind the other PC and then all of the Gnolls move down the congo line through that breach as far as their movement allows them. One of them will take an OA from the Monk and one of them will take an OA from the Fighter, but many of them break through nonetheless in a single round.

Gnolls with a 14 strength and no athletics skill to speak off are pretty strong eh. The odds are still not in their favor.

This is what would narratively happen when 23 200+ pound gnolls rush down a corridor. They would overwhelm the two defenders at the end of it. It's not that the Gnolls are so smart that they would use the Shove action instead of attacking, it's that mechanically, this is the main tool that the 5E game system gives DMs and players to have a group of rushing characters (PC or NPC) bust past a front line.

Have you ever seen a panicked crowd rush down a hallway? That is what should happen here.

Or the Fang would think he was going to win with his sons and attack the person in front of him. Which he did, which is also a completely reasonable course of action.

The monsters shouldn't just calmly wait at the other end of the corridor, waiting for their turn to die.

They did not. They conga lined archers behind their fang leader thinking he and his sons would win.

Sorry, but your DM is not using the tools at his disposal.

He certainly did. Your second guessing after the fact because you don't play that way. I see no reason why gnolls wouldn't fight a few rounds thinking their chieftain and his sons would win. We took him down very quickly. Like I said in other post, damage is heavily in our favor.

Your group of super tacticians and optimizers would be so smoked at my table if you begged me to throw CR 8 challenges at you at level 3.

You would come to throw those encounters at us and we could smoke them. You're playing armchair QB right now without realizing how fast things went down or how much damage a group of characters can do even at level 3. I can't explain to you the round by round that went down and I'm not going to. We won fair and square using solid tactics against tactics gnolls would use.

No, we wouldn't. Armchair QBing aside, the tactics were well-executed and involved more than I'm listing. I listed the final area we fought. We took out part of the gnolls prior to that enegagement. Which is why the chief massed his tribe to start with and came with the rest of his living gnolls.

I'd bet money we smoke your CR 8 encounters against gnolls. They're weak. There was a lot more to the encounter than I'm going to take the time to post on this board. We staggered our ranged attackers to hit the gnolls as they were running after us. Explaining every single tactic that went into that fight would take too much time.

I'd bet money we smoke your CR 8 encounters under the same conditions. I'd bet money it would only become worse for you as we gained levels until you were doing exactly as we do: making CR encounters far above normal just to provide some kind of challenge.

You want to talk some smack from afar because you hear a little piece of information and think of a way to counter it after the fact. When you were in the moment, you would be experiencing what we were doing and seeing that you didn't have much means to turn it against us. If you did try your tactics, you would find us adjusting ours.