D&D 5E Would you change a monster's hit points mid-fight?

spinozajack

Banned
Banned
First: nothing I do is arbitrary. Starting off your argument this way is basically setting up a straw man. You're assuming I make changes for no reason at all when you have absolutely no reason to believe this is the case except for your own bias on the issue.

Since you've given me no real game issue that fudging HP or dice rolls is supposed to solve that a lighter touch couldn't otherwise handle in a more open, transparent, and honest fashion, I'd say it's actually your stance that's a strawman. If breaking the rules for combat and HP alteration serves a good purpose that other rules or rulings can't solve, the onus is then on you to prove that changing HP to some arbitrary value at any time is reasonable for a DM to do.

Some people obviously feel strongly about it. Even the DMG passage that is used to rationalize fudging is vague on when it should be done, with strong urgings to avoid doing it very often regardless. Why would they say that? Because it creates problems at the table, it breaks trust, it breaks suspension of disbelief. DM fiat is not exactly an uncontentious issue, even in an edition about "rulings not rules". Making a ruling to change HP by +10 or turn that crit into a miss is not really called for. Players or monsters dying at the whim of the dice is actually a feature of the game, one of its cornerstones.

Because next time is next time. 2 more monsters is not just another 20HP. It's two more inititives to track. It's two more attacks per round. It's more targets for the party to deal with. I want to affect what is happening this time. I will make adjustments next time, but that's next time and next time will be different and it may turn out that I used too many or still too few. Adjusting HP now gives me control now which is when I need it.

If you want less monsters to track then put in a tougher monster. If you want the monster to last longer, give it some armor or bracers of defense or a level of fighter or barbarian. Why do you need to micromanage HP? That just negates the dice and combat resolution from actually mattering when it counts. If you're using a given monster's HP as a pacing mechanic for combat, might I suggest reading some other passages of the DMG that have much better advice than "some DMs fudge dice rolls, sometimes, but we don't recommend doing it often". There are tons of tools in the DM's toolbox, this is like using an eraser on the action that led up to that point. If you're dictating how many rounds a monster has to live, and preventing untimely PC death, why bother using dice? It's just an illusion.

I'll state for clarity that I don't usually adjust up. It is almost always down. Sometimes I do toss in more monsters when I want combats to last longer.

Adjusting up or down is not the point. If you want monsters to have less HP, just use dice rolling or set them to have been injured prior to this combat. The difference might seem semantic but it really isn't. When you assign or roll HP then you stick to it, it cements the history of that monster as having some kind of reality in the story. If you alter it on a whim, in either direction, instead of tossing in more monsters or having that monster use some kind of actual healing ability it may or may not have at its disposal, then you're negating player choices in their abilities. The fighter who takes great weapon master for that extra +10 damage should actually kill monsters faster. Not the DM saying "it dies". If you want to end the combat, you can simply say "fast forward : combat ends, you guys won". It's as simple as that.

No need to fudge HP, ever.

I don't care what you think is fair. What I care about is my table. The enjoyment of my players and the overall mood of my game. Adjusting HP is a tool I use to moderate that mood.

What mood do you think is generated when players know their DM fudges dice rolls in their favor when they're about to die, or auto-heals monsters when they get the drop on them and can retire them early? One of DM authority gone wild, in my experience. Once players figure this out, they will start playing recklessly.

There are much better, open, descriptive ways to alter the mood of your game than fudging HP or attacks.

That's nice that you feel that way about it. I only speak for myself when I tell others what I do at my table. If you play differently that is by all means, you choice and I have no problem with it. What I don't appreciate and what others apparently don't appreciate is being told that how I play at my table is badwrongfun because some guy on the internet doesn't approve.

Ahh, ok. I don't approve of cheating, and nor do many others. I also don't approve of people cheating and then calling it not cheating. That I will always call people out on. I can't abide intellectual dishonesty. Go ahead and read the dictionary again, fudging means cheating. Altering HP or attack outcomes on the fly is referred to as fudging in the DMG and by people here. Therefore, changing HP is cheating.

And just because there is a passage in the DMG saying you can cheat, does not make it either "not cheating" or okay with everyone.

I have no doubt that lots of people derive great enjoyment from cheating when they play games. But I do think cheating is wrong. And so does the majority of the human species, I believe. (or so they say)

See, you started this argument out on a straw man and now this straw man is about to give Burning Man a run for his money. You don't know why I adjust HP, when I do it, you didn't even ask you just started in on the assumption that I must do it for all these reasons you don't like therefore it's wrong. I really would appreciate it if you just said "Why don't you tell us why you adjust HP during the fight?" instead of assuming I do so because *reasons* in your head.

I don't really care why people do it, I've played the game just as long as anyone here has and have seen it all, and heard all the rationalizations. The game runs fine without fudging HP, and you can alter mood and pacing in much better ways if that's truly your goal or motivation.

At this point I feel like I'm watching Clint Eastwood debate "Obama" in the invisible chair. I'm not sure who you're talking to about ignoring the dice, since I'm not doing that. I'm adjusting the HP. Fudging dice rolls has an entirely different sort of reasoning behind it.

Are you saying being against cheating equates me to a senile old man talking to a chair?

The difference between fudging dice rolls and HP is minor compared to running the combat resolution system without the invisible hand of god behind every outcome.

Well, again you are more than welcome to play however you like at your table. I would, again, appreciate not being told that I am having badwrongfun for playing the way I do at my table. Please and thank you.

You are of course free to cheat at your table, just don't pretend that fudging isn't cheating, because it is. According to the dictionary.

At some point there was a discussion about fudging HP in here. Now we're talking about the impartiality of the dice. While I wasn't specific on what sort of fudging I do at my table, it would be really nice if to have some sort of clue when I can catch the next train to wherever your argument went.

My argument is founded in fair play and twenty five years experience playing this game. I fudged a few times, so I know how easy the temptation is, but I think it's lazy and a poor man's pacing technique. Worse, if it's used to make players have plot immunity or certain monsters have plot immunity, then yes, I do think that goes against the spirit of the game and there are plenty of people who agree with me and think the way I do.

Including the DMG, that explicitly warned people not to let players know they are fudging things behind the screen. Why even say that if it's not a problem? I didn't invent this problem, this problem exists and has for a very long time, since the beginning probably. There are better ways to handle pacing, and if a PC dies suddenly, you can always have a priest resurrect them at the church for a fee and send the party for a quest.

Fudging HP is a solution in search of a problem. And it's a bad solution at that, because it inherently causes problems. Namely trust issues. Lots of players find fudging dishonest. Many tables roll out in the open for this exact reason. If the current HP are altered, that violates trust that rolling in the open is supposed to provide. Making is even more dishonest.

I actually like the core D&D rules for 5th edition, and I don't think it's a big deal if a PC or a BBEG dies one round sooner or later. If you're circumventing the rules for HP alteration by adding or substacting from the current total, you're just saying you have no confidence in the combat system or game system or the dice from providing a compelling game experience.

And if you only alter HP when it would make the difference between life and death, that's the same thing as invalidating the entire combat, because killing stuff or dying is usually how you win or lose. If you're forcing a win condition or a lose condition on the outcome, then rolling dice is pointless.
 
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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I would submit that if a scene is boring, it's not the hit points that are causing it, nor is the alteration of hit points by the DM necessarily a particularly good solution to making it more exciting. Rather it just helps bring a boring scene to an end faster. The takeaway for me is: "Don't create and run boring scenes."

Two things:

1) Unless you are very strongly railroading the players and rigging the dice, while you have control over the design of a scene, you don't have control of how it plays out. No plan survives contact with the players, or random chance. Some things just don't turn out in play like you hope.

2) What you, personally, take from it is fine. What people are *giving* for it is the real issue. The intolerance and desire to brand negativity on what other people do in their attempt to entertain themselves pretending to be elves is... kind of flabbergasting.

I mean, really, folks. Say a foursome heads to a golf course. They're all duffers, and decide to play by "winter rules", even though it's July. You aren't even playing on the same course - do you bother to call them "cheaters"? Or hey, maybe you don't like anchovies. The guy in front of you in the pizza parlor orders anchovies on his pizza. Do you engage him in a discussion of how small fish on pizza is badwrongfood? Lecture them on how adding anchovies to a pizza doesn't really make it better pizza, but just makes up for lackluster cheese? Even though it is the same parlor, with fundamentally the same cheese?!? Or do you just figure the folks in his house like anchovies?

I mean, really.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Two things:

1) Unless you are very strongly railroading the players and rigging the dice, while you have control over the design of a scene, you don't have control of how it plays out. No plan survives contact with the players, or random chance. Some things just don't turn out in play like you hope.

2) What you, personally, take from it is fine. What people are *giving* for it is the real issue. The intolerance and desire to brand negativity on what other people do in their attempt to entertain themselves pretending to be elves is... kind of flabbergasting.

I mean, really, folks. Say a foursome heads to a golf course. They're all duffers, and decide to play by "winter rules", even though it's July. You aren't even playing on the same course - do you bother to call them "cheaters"? Or hey, maybe you don't like anchovies. The guy in front of you in the pizza parlor orders anchovies on his pizza. Do you engage him in a discussion of how small fish on pizza is badwrongfood? Lecture them on how adding anchovies to a pizza doesn't really make it better pizza, but just makes up for lackluster cheese? Even though it is the same parlor, with fundamentally the same cheese?!? Or do you just figure the folks in his house like anchovies?

I mean, really.

Pardon me, but you seem to be confusing me with somebody else. I have not disparaged anyone's way of playing, called it "badwrongfun," or said - in any way - that they are "cheating." I haven't said these things because I don't believe these things. I have said what I do in all cases. I have also suggested that if adjusting hit points is a solution to ending a boring scene that perhaps it's worth considering the underlying problem of creating and running boring scenes in the first place. That is all.

As to your point that wasn't a gross misinterpretation of what I have been saying, while you cannot predict how a scene will resolve, the DM and players have a huge amount of impact on how fun any scene plays out, both in design and how they choose to engage with it during play. If we improve on these fronts, we can eliminate the need to adjust hit points to end boring scenes in the first place because we won't have boring scenes in our games!
 

Jacob Marley

Adventurer
I find that very interesting, and to me not D&D at all.

I wonder if its more common in games whose players/DMs are running the same version of D&D tney hace pkayed for decades. The assumption being by now everyone knows the stats of a kobold.

Not sure how common or uncommon it is. However, I'll give you another datapoint for your hypothesis. 31 years running D&D and it hasn't been one edition. GMed every edition except for OD&D and Jacob Marley's description of his GMing is 100 % in lockstep with my own.

I have been running since 1991 and, like Manbearcat, have done so using multiple editions. Of my five players three have been playing for 25+ years, one for 15+ years, and one started only a couple of years ago. I am not sure why what I do is not D&D to you, [MENTION=22574]The Human Target[/MENTION]?
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Including the DMG, that explicitly warned people not to let players know they are fudging things behind the screen. Why even say that if it's not a problem? I didn't invent this problem, this problem exists and has for a very long time, since the beginning probably.
The issue goes way back and speaks to why we have DM screens. It's not just that the DM should conceal dice rolls when there are going to be factors other than the dice involved, or audibly roll the dice to make the players nervous, or just hide his notes so they can't read over his shoulders. It's that the DM is the players interface with the world of the game, and letting them know too much about the world, it's challenges (or even their characters), dilutes that. Keeping some of the details of the rules - and rulings - from the players is part of that. If the players know all the rules governing their characters, and take note of what, say, a monster does to them, what they do to it, and on what rolls, they can reverse engineer all sorts of information about that monsters, even about rules of the game that apply to that monsters, but apply to none of their characters. So you keep as much as possible on your side of the screen.

The 'problem' with players knowing too much can be put different ways: immersion, suspension of disbelief, DM authority, narrative control, force, etc... It doesn't even have to be a problem, some games play just fine with everything out in the open (some games are even designed to work without one player always being in the dedicated DM role).

But, avoiding that problem is part of achieving DM empowerment and ending player entitlement.
 

spinozajack

Banned
Banned
The issue goes way back and speaks to why we have DM screens. It's not just that the DM should conceal dice rolls when there are going to be factors other than the dice involved, or audibly roll the dice to make the players nervous, or just hide his notes so they can't read over his shoulders. It's that the DM is the players interface with the world of the game, and letting them know too much about the world, it's challenges (or even their characters), dilutes that. Keeping some of the details of the rules - and rulings - from the players is part of that. If the players know all the rules governing their characters, and take note of what, say, a monster does to them, what they do to it, and on what rolls, they can reverse engineer all sorts of information about that monsters, even about rules of the game that apply to that monsters, but apply to none of their characters. So you keep as much as possible on your side of the screen.

The 'problem' with players knowing too much can be put different ways: immersion, suspension of disbelief, DM authority, narrative control, force, etc... It doesn't even have to be a problem, some games play just fine with everything out in the open (some games are even designed to work without one player always being in the dedicated DM role).

But, avoiding that problem is part of achieving DM empowerment and ending player entitlement.

I don't see DM empowerment or player entitlement as the ultimate end goals. I see a mix of player, DM, and dice all contributing to the end result.

Changing HP independently of dice being rolled defeats the whole purpose of the dice : their cold impartiality.

I see DMs as arbiters of the rules, and creators of worlds, but the dice are the true hands of god in D&D. Routinely ignoring HP totals as dictated by the normal flow of combat or healing robs them of their essence and their importance.

D&D without dice isn't D&D. And D&D without dice mattering, because the outcome is determined by the DM anyway, isn't much better. That's taking away from the "dice matter" column and putting it in the DM column. It's not helpful to players to play in a world with shifting grounds under their feet. Sword attacks and damage shouldn't be subject to anything but the rules as written. If a DM wants an enemy to be dead, now, he can do it like Zeus with a bolt of lightning. But players wouldn't like that. So doing that behind the DM screen is dishonest, because players think the dice are actually having a say in their fortunes but they actually aren't.

Sure the DM needs a DM screen, sometimes, like for maps or secret info or what have you. But rolling behind the screen for routine combat rolls isn't necessary and is often used as a substitute for admitting that lots of people actually don't like the fact that D&D has some randomness built-in, and that's what makes the game great and worth playing in the first place.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I don't see DM empowerment or player entitlement as the ultimate end goals.
Ending player entitlement and empowering DMs are things that were mentioned as considerations in 5e.

D&D without dice isn't D&D. And D&D without dice mattering, because the outcome is determined by the DM anyway, isn't much better. That's taking away from the "dice matter" column and putting it in the DM column.
It most certainly is D&D, it's a very old DMing technique.

It's not helpful to players to play in a world with shifting grounds under their feet. Sword attacks and damage shouldn't be subject to anything but the rules as written. If a DM wants an enemy to be dead, now, he can do it like Zeus with a bolt of lightning. But players wouldn't like that. So doing that behind the DM screen is dishonest, because players think the dice are actually having a say in their fortunes but they actually aren't.
It's not dishonest, it's just maintaining the separation between DM and player. In 3.5, appeals to RAW robbed the DM of some flexibility and some tools he could otherwise use to keep his campaign running well. 5e addresses that with 'rulings not rules' instead of RAW - and a 'RAW' that really /needs/ the DM to function, so is harder for rules-lawyers to use against him.
 



pemerton

Legend
Nothing like a boring finale to a BBEG campaign to make everyone go "meh".
If the players plan strategically and it allows them to one round the end boss, they deserve their flawless victory.
A third alternative is to build towards interesting rather than boring along the lines [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION] suggested, and to combine that with a system that doesn't permit boring finales.

In my case I have found 4e to be that system; others will have their own preferences.

Flipping it around: if I was using a system which regularly delivered boring outcomes unless I ignored or overrode it, I would change my system!
 

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