D&D 5E Convince me we're doing the Warlock wrong

I feel that 5e is trying to turn away from "leet powerz" and focus more on the story-telling aspects of D&D. I guess if a person is always trying to compare their class with other classes, one will be 'better' than another. To me, 'different' is not the same as 'better'. I do agree that Warlocks appear to be lumped in with other caster classes, but practically every class has at least some spell-casting or spell-equivalent abilities.
That's not wrong, but it doesn't help that the blade and chain warlocks are sub-par options with little feat or in-class support for what they want to be.

The Warlock is a hard class to describe to new players. Truly, it's a tough balance. But if one were to line up the Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer and Warlock spells-per-level charts side by side, one would see that the Warlock is the only one without full casting progression. One might assume, then, that spell-casting is not the Warlock's focus; they're dabblers, and the fluff supports this as "borrowing" power from their Patrons. Some of that power is "locked in" via Invocations, some is standard spell-casting, and some comes with their Pact... so, in a sense, a Warlock is a pre-fab 'caster' with an assortment of tricks, tricks that require some system know-how to properly judge their efficiency.
Which is an absolute disaster from the game design standpoint. Simplicity and ease of play is supposed to be a selling point. A low level of system mastery to play effectively. With the warlock, its exceptionally easy to make bad choices and have a character that doesn't do much.

Also, assuming your game does not allow Feats, every character's base combat ability improves at the same rate, Proficiency + Str/Dex. I don't understand why people are upset that Hexblades don't do "as much damage" as... what, warriors?... with their weapon. You get to materialize any weapon you choose and it counts as magic. That's pretty awesome. Why is that not enough?
Because of several reasons. 1) If we assume no multi-classing or feats, we're looking at pretty much restricting the warlock to DEX-based weapons, thanks to the restriction to light armor and no shields. 2) Without feats, that eliminates the almost-required Warcaster, which means we MUST restrict our offhand to manipulating material components or somatic gestures. This means the blade warlock is, without doubt, a DEX-duelist by necessity, no other options. That means we're restricted to a rapier, short sword, whip, or dagger. You could, in theory, set up your limited spells before combat, and go TWFing, but that means neglecting Hex (both are bonus actions to use), and Hex with Extra Attacks is better than a single off-hand attack.

Given that throwing the dagger is actively dumb (why would you eliminate your pact weapon when you need it for Extra Attacks), and short sword is just flat out inferior without a TWF option, the rapier and whip are the only two choices here. With Hex up, we're doing equal damage to a Fighter with a greatsword. The extra THP puts us on par with the Fighters better HP per level and second wind.

So far, so good. Now, here's where things go sideways. Hex is a Concentration spell, and a hexblade is a melee warrior. He's going to be taking hits, and trying to make multiple CON saves without Advantage or Proficency. Without feats or multiclassing, there's no way for him to make the saves with any regularity. That means we lose Hex. We don't have enough spell slots to keep it up constantly. Suddenly, our damage output stalls / dies. We actively have a character that's doing less damage than a Fighter. We don't do enough damage to meaningfully affect combat. Our chances of activating Dark One's Blessing drops. We could use TWF at this point, but its a bandage still leaves us with subpar damage compared to anyone else, with less AC.

Meanwhile, the Fighter has Superiority Dice, spells, or whatever the Champion gets, and Action Surge, and consistent damage output. The paladin, without feats, can generally out damage the Fighter. Rogues stay consistant with damage output and have their nifty reaction to halve damage, plus the ability to run around the field with Cunning Action. Valor Bards get plenty of options as full casters plus their Inspirations, as do the War Clerics with their buffs and heals. Rangers can do the Hunter Mark thing as a duelist, but get a shield and +2 damage from Dueling Fighting Style.

For the vast majority of players, its not fun to be consistently out shined and have limited build options. THAT is the problem. Without system mastery (which requires multi-classing and feats), the blade warlock is a subpar option that doesn't deliver on its promise of being a spellblade style battler. Especially when they could be doing better damage using Eldritch Blast from ranged while getting hit less.
 

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Extra Attack, yes. 2nd damage die for cantrips... I thought it was established that was based on character level, not class level, since the spell descriptions don't explicitly say class level.

Extra attack is a class feature, so you get it at level 5 in a martial class. You could go paladin 4/barb 4/fighter 4/ ranger 4/ monk 4, and despite being level 20 you'd still only have 1 attack. Cantrips, on the other hand, scale with character level so you could be sorc 1/ fighter (BM) 19 and still be doing 4d10 with fire bolt.
 

That's what I was saying. I was agreeing with Chocolategravy about Extra Attack, and disagreeing with him about cantrips, since he specifically mentioned "non-multiclass characters".
 


Color me unimpressed. The acquisition of archetypes (for non-casters, anyway) is much more meaningful--on both fluff AND power levels, IMO--than getting a second attack.

If you're going with fluff as an argument then spontaneously becoming a different type of class, such as boom, suddenly being able to cast spells for an eldritch knight, is very much an apprentice tier thing. As for power levels, no, extra attack and your cantrip doubling has a FAR bigger power boost than most if not all subclass level 3 benefits.
 

Extra attack is a class feature, so you get it at level 5 in a martial class. You could go paladin 4/barb 4/fighter 4/ ranger 4/ monk 4, and despite being level 20 you'd still only have 1 attack..

Sadly not only is extra attack a class feature but so is ability score increases/feats so a MC character tends to have lower stats and be weaker/slower/dumber/uglier than non-MC characters. Such poor design, ugh.
 

We probably average .3 short rests per long. As in, about one in three "adventuring days" gets a short rest.
I'm curious, what kind of encounter structure do you use to have that happen? My own games have encounters rather sporadically, with lots of travel in between, which is why I'm using the Gritty Healing rest variant from the DMG.
 

Extra attack is a class feature, so you get it at level 5 in a martial class. You could go paladin 4/barb 4/fighter 4/ ranger 4/ monk 4, and despite being level 20 you'd still only have 1 attack..

This is true. However, the way the classes and sub-classes were built... with the expectation and deliberate notification of WotC to the players that it's completely okay that you adjust or design the classes and sub-classes to make your own if you feel there is something missing... my personal take on what the designers would respond to this scenario you present would be "What are you trying to get by multiclassing five different classes for 4 levels each, that would instead be able to be accomplished easier/better by just designing or adjusting a single or two classes/sub-classes to get you want you want?"

If there are specific abilities that each of those five classes get you within the Levels 1-4 range... why not just take one or two classes and then power-swap some of the other abilities from the remaining 3 for the features of the two classes you level? That way, you can probably reach the levels to get Extra Attacks and whatnot, while still getting the abilities from the other three classes too? If you want to be a Paladin/Fighter with Rage and Ki... design a Fighter sub-class that gives you Rage rather than Maneuvers and swap out the Paladin's Divine Smite for Ki (just choosing random stuff off the top of my head.)

Seems to me... the game's been designed and presented such that this is the more effective method for getting the type of character you want, rather than multiclassing four to six times in four to six classes. And if by some chance you want to go paladin 4/barb 4/fighter 4/ ranger 4/ monk 4 specifically because you want every single Level 1-4 feature all five classes give you... then your "power swap" is your Extra Attack feature. You are "swapping out" Extra Attack to get everything else you get from the four levels of all five classes. *That's* I think where the balancing comes in. And if you find you do desperately want Extra Attack... then don't multiclass into 8 levels of monk and ranger, put them into fighter or paladin, and then swap in the features you wanted from the monk and ranger by swapping out the features from paladin and fighter you didn't want. That's the choice you have to make, and the way (I think) the game was designed to be most easily accomplished.
 
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I completely agree that the blade-lock was screwed up. You literally are just better off using Agonizing Blast and hex unless you are highly optimized--generally requiring multiclassing and/or feats and taking multiple dump stats, *or* you are moderately optimized and your DM hands you a really, really, ridiculously powered weapon (like a +3 vorpal flametongue greatsword). You just can't make it work normally unless you don't mind feeling like you brought a kitchen knife to a lasergun fight.

To make Blade-lock work you really need to dip Fighter for two or three levels. Preferably before taking Warlock (for Con saves, Fighting style, Heavy armor, Action surge, superiority dice). Dump Dex, pimp Cha and Str. Paladin works as well.

Polearms are probably your best bet for pact weapons (and Polearm master feat) allowing both an extra attack (to get the best use with Hex and Lifedrinker). Great weapons are also a solid bet (with GWM). Its probably too expensive to take both.

A Str 16 variant human Ftr 1/ Lock 1 (polearm master) does some impressive damage with Hex + Halberd (1d10+1d6+3)+(1d4+1d6+3) re-rolling 1's and 2's if he takes the GWF fighting style. Every kill grants him 4 Temp HP thanks to Fiend pact (Temp HP dont stack, but make for a VERY tanky 2nd level character, especially with the automatic opportunity attack 1/round when an enemy enters your reach and second wind).
 


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