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D&D 5E Warlording the fighter

epithet

Explorer
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There you go with the edition-war talking points again.
...

Enough with the "edition war" nonsense. I don't have anything against any prior editions (although 3.5 got too granular for my tastes eventually, I still enjoyed playing.) The only edition I am invested in is 5e, and that is largely because it is the one I'm currently playing. I'm very sorry that someone said mean things to you 6 years ago about your favorite class, but it wasn't me. I don't have a dog in that hunt.

I have a problem with the Warlord standing in the middle of the battlefield throwing a lot of hit points at his allies and not calling it magic. It seems like what your talking about are magic heals, and the only thing that makes them not magic heals is your insistence that they are "martial" in nature and "restoration of hit points" isn't a "heal." Now, I know you think I'm just rolling out arguments from 2009 that were an unreasonable attempt to rain on your parade, but I'm not. I'm simply telling you that, after reading and considering everything you've said so far, I don't agree that it makes any sense (to me) for a character to heal an ally through will and personality for more than you could get from Second Wind.

You don't have to convince me, you're under no obligation to consider my arguments or to respect my opinion whatsoever. I'm telling you, though, in all sincerity, that I am approaching this with an interest in a Warlord class because the concept of a battle leader appeals to me. I have a relatively open mind, and I am generally receptive to change, though I don't seek it for its own sake. I am, in other words, disposed to regard your suggestions favorably. Even so, the "martial healer" concept seems like an effort to force a square peg into a round hole.

That's not me being an "edition warrior," that's me being honest.
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
Enough with the "edition war" nonsense.
My feeling, exactly. Feel free to stop spouting it any time.


I have a problem with the Warlord standing in the middle of the battlefield throwing a lot of hit points at his allies and not calling it magic. Now, I know you think I'm just rolling out arguments from 2009
that was one of them, yes. You can insist that you're spontaneously coming up with the same spurious objections on your own, but it makes no difference to me. You're repeating tired, old, invalid, edition-war-era arguments.

I'm telling you, though, in all sincerity, that I am approaching this with an interest in a Warlord class because the concept of a battle leader appeals to me
Your constant re-hashing of edition war talking points is at odds with that assertion. I would find you more credible if you were focused on what you wanted from such a class, rather than what you wanted to exclude from it.

I have a relatively open mind,
If you had an open mind, it wouldn't be closed to the idea of a class having options that you, personally, could choose not to take.

If you find yourself persuaded by edition war rhetoric that Inspiring Word was an abomination against D&D, and you therefor never choose it for some hypothetical Warlord you hypothetically get around to playing, that's your right, and I'll advocate for that right. But you have no reason, and no right, to object to my playing a Warlord using such a mechanic, nor to there being such a mechanic available.
 
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epithet

Explorer
I don't know what Inspiring Word is. I no longer care enough to look it up.

I don't want to fight your edition war, and your efforts to drag everything I post in this thread into that BS context is tedious. I am willing to talk about ideas for a solid 5e class, but I'm not going to argue about the virtues and flaws of 4e D&D.
 

Question:
If the warlord can heal somone of hit point damage with their words, giving them the extra morale and confidence to keep fighting - as hit points do not equate with health in this situation - should there not also be an offensive use? Why can't the warlord demoralize the enemy, causing hit point damage and even killing foes with the power of their words?
Since hit points do not equal health, they're not injuring the foes, just sapping their confidence so much that they lose the will to live.
Thoughts?

that was one of them, yes. You can insist that you're spontaneously coming up with the same spurious objections on your own, but it makes no difference to me. You're repeating tired, old, invalid, edition-war-era arguments.

Your constant re-hashing of edition war talking points is at odds with that assertion. I would find you more credible if you were focused on what you wanted from such a class, rather than what you wanted to exclude from it.
Tony, you're acting like a Vietnam War vet suffering from PTSD and seeing "charlie" everywhere.
No one else is fighting the edition war. The edition war is over. No one cares anymore. The only person really bringing up 4e is you.

The reason the warlord and martial healing was an issue in 4e was NOT because people didn't like 4e, but because they didn't like martial healing. Had martial healing been largely introduced in a 3e book, they would have hated that as well. Criticizing a part of 4e is not the same as criticizing the entire edition, especially when the element is being brought into the new edition.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I don't want to fight your edition war, and your efforts to drag everything I post in this thread into that BS context is tedious.
Then stop.

And there's no effort involved. You're re-hashing this stuff almost verbatim.

Just stop.

Tell us what you want, not what you want to deprive everyone of.

I am willing to talk about ideas for a solid 5e class, but I'm not going to argue about the virtues and flaws of 4e D&D.
The Warlord was introduced by 4e, it's the only example of what the Warlord 'should' be, at minimum.
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
If the warlord can heal somone of hit point damage with their words, giving them the extra morale and confidence to keep fighting should there not also be an offensive use? Why can't the warlord demoralize the enemy, causing hit point damage?
In 4e there were two game-design reasons not to go that way (much). For one thing, the Warlord was a Leader, not a controller, and the kinds of offensive, morale-based exploits that idea would tend to imply would be much more suited to the Controller role (in fact, there was a homebrew martial controller, the Dreadnought, that did just that sort of thing, but..) For another, 4e design stuck firmly to the idea of martial classes using weapons, not implements, so there'd have been no clean way to work something like that into the infamous 'treadmill.'

5e, BTW, faces neither of those issues.



Tony, you're acting like a Vietnam War vet suffering from PTSD and seeing "charlie" everywhere.
No one else is fighting the edition war. The edition war is over. No one cares anymore.
An apt analogy, if said vet were south-Vietnamese, still in Vietnam, and VC were still shooting at him.

This is one of those rice paddies where the edition war played out, afterall.

The only person really bringing up 4e is you.
Again, the Warlord only existed in 4e, you can't discuss it while pretending 4e never existed. And, if there were helicopters waiting at the embassy to take us to some Pathfinder-style 4e-Clone, I must have missed 'em.

The reason the warlord and martial healing was an issue in 4e was NOT because people didn't like 4e, but because they didn't like martial healing. Had martial healing been largely introduced in a 3e book, they would have hated that as well.
Martial Healing, surge-like HD and and overnight healing, along with fighters who really do cast spells, and quite a lot else criticized are in 5e in various forms, and drawing far less criticism, even in proportion.

But, it's not an important distinction: the arguments against those things are as invalid now as they were then - and even less relevant, with 5e's DM-empowering style making ignoring or changing them easy. Any hypothetical Warlord would have to be an opt-in class, part of some module, perhaps. There's no reason for those who hate it to fear it. You won't have to defect to Pathfinder, just keep playing the Standard Game.
 
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In 4e there were two game-design reasons not to go that way (much). For one thing, the Warlord was a Leader, not a controller, and the kinds of offensive, morale-based exploits that idea would tend to imply would be much more suited to the Controller role (in fact, there was a homebrew martial controller, the Dreadnought, that did just that sort of thing, but..) For another, 4e design stuck firmly to the idea of martial classes using weapons, not implements, so there'd have been no clean way to work something like that into the infamous 'treadmill.'

5e, BTW, faces neither of those issues.
Not having to do with 5e, none of the above is relevant.

The question stands: should the warlord be able to demoralize someone to death? Is that a build you would support?

Again, the Warlord only existed in 4e, you can't discuss it while pretending 4e never existed.
True.
But we still have to be able to evaluate the individual mechanics and elements of the class. We have to look at what worked and what didn't. Shutting down discussion of a mechanics, any mechanic, with the edition war card is not conducive to the discussion.

But, it's not an important distinction: the arguments against those things are as invalid now as they were then - and even less relevant, with 5e's DM-empowering style making ignoring or changing them easy.
If the concerns were truly irrelevant, why do they keep coming up? And voiced by posters uninvolved in the edition wars?

Look at who you're arguing with and driving away: someone who only joined the forums in June of this year. Is this the face of the community you want to present?
 

El Mahdi

Muad'Dib of the Anauroch
Question:
If the warlord can heal somone of hit point damage with their words, giving them the extra morale and confidence to keep fighting - as hit points do not equate with health in this situation - should there not also be an offensive use? Why can't the warlord demoralize the enemy, causing hit point damage and even killing foes with the power of their words?
Since hit points do not equal health, they're not injuring the foes, just sapping their confidence so much that they lose the will to live.
Thoughts?

First, a Warlord doesn't heal anybody; the Warlord's words initiate a response where someone essentially heals them self - allows their body to regain homeostasis. The Warlord is just the initiator and catalyst, not the one doing the healing.

Please read this: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...ghter/page33&p=6675105&viewfull=1#post6675105

Two, Hit Points do equate to health in this situation. Actual recovery from damage occurs. No, injuries themselves do not suddenly knit together. What occurs is that homeostasis is re-established, and loss of homeostasis is damage.

Three, while one can be inspired to recover, and there are even real life examples of this, I know of no examples of the opposite - at least not of an immediate and explicit nature, which is what it seems to me you're describing.

My thoughts on that is it smells too much of magic or mentalism - which is counter to the narrative theme of Warlords - and it steps on the toes of the Bard. As a demoralizing thing, to impart a penalty or disadvantage? Sure. It's getting inside the head of an opponent. As Hit Point damage? No.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Not having to do with 5e, none of the above is relevant.
On the contrary, the design philosophies that limited the initial Warlord design are extremely relevant, precisely because 5e removes them.

The question stands: should the warlord be able to demoralize someone to death? Is that a build you would support?
There's no reason for an ability like that to be off the table for a 5e class. Bards can already insult people to death - in fact, one of the most entertaining moments of an otherwise dismal season of HotDQ came from a pair of bards insulting an Urd's wings until it furled them in shame and plummeted to it's death.

I certainly wouldn't mind seeing an ability like that as part of a much larger list players could choose from. That way a player who did like the idea of a Hector-style Warlord who could destroy an enemy's will to fight without ever crossing swords with him or turn the tide of a battle with a war-cry or morale-shattering stratagem, could actually have a chance of realizing that concept. And, of course, anyone who couldn't handle the idea would have other options.

But, no, I wouldn't support a Warlord class that was hard-coded with such an ability, essentially making it some sort of morale-based controller, not anymore than I could support the warlord being represented only by a sub-class of a hard-coded multi-attack DPR 'striker' class.

There's really so much design space left open to martial concepts that the handful of non-casting classes haven't explored. All the formal, traditional, and imputed roles except Striker. Morale-based effects. Followers. Formation-based maneuvers. Modelling IC tactics & strategy as distinct from (or dovetailing with) system-mastery-optimal tactics & 'player skill' metagame strategies. The 5e PH focused so heavily on casters that there's just a lot of room for expansion and improvement elsewhere.

True.
But we still have to be able to evaluate the individual mechanics and elements of the class. We have to look at what worked and what didn't.
We do. I ran 4e for it's full run and played a number of Warlords in all three Tiers, and and can conclusively, and truthfully state that the hp-restoration mechanics of that class worked very well, indeed. You and Epiphet, OTOH, are unqualified to make any such judgement.

Shutting down discussion of a mechanics, any mechanic, with the edition war card is not conducive to the discussion.
Shutting down discussion of the /mechanics/ is what the edition-war talking points being recycled do. They're invalid objections, repeated ad nauseum, no matter how many times they're refuted, turning any attempt at a worthwhile discussion into an endless loop of recriminations.

If the concerns were truly irrelevant, why do they keep coming up?
They are irrelevant in the context of 5e. They were /invalid/ before, and still are. But the irrelevance of a philosophical or personal-taste/opinion objection to a mechanic in 5e is obvious: Any forthcoming Warlord, by definition, will not be part of the Standard Game, it will be strictly opt-in. There's no foundation for excluding a mechanic just because a particular sub-set of the community wants to deprive everyone of an otherwise excellent mechanic and extremely interesting and enjoyable class. Not even the tenuous, petulant cry that you "shouldn't have to ban" the stuff you don't like. Irrelevant.
Any hypothetical Warlord would, perforce, be a modular addition, you'd have to opt-in, you could continue to play the Basic or Standard or even Advanced game with modules of your choice, without ever being afflicted with the presence of a worthwhile martial class.

First, a Warlord doesn't heal anybody; the Warlord's words initiate a response where someone essentially heals them self - allows their body to regain homeostasis. The Warlord is just the initiator and catalyst, not the one doing the healing... Hit Points do equate to health in this situation. Actual recovery from damage occurs. No, injuries themselves do not suddenly knit together. What occurs is that homeostasis is re-established, and loss of homeostasis is damage.
That's an interesting way of looking at it, and really goes far beyond the standards of fantasy tropes that should, alone, be more than sufficient.

Three, while one can be inspired to recover, and there are even real life examples of this, I know of no examples of the opposite - at least not of an immediate and explicit nature, which is what it seems to me you're describing.
Nod. Examples from RL, such as a victim of a 'curse' giving up on life and wasting away, do take a while to manifest. A sudden morale failure certainly could be immediately fatal in combat, but the proximate cause of that fatality would still be a physical injury, just one sustained as the result of giving up or panicking in the midst of battle. In ancients and medieval battles, for instance, the greatest casualties were generally inflicted upon the losing side after their morale broke.

A very abstract way of modeling that could be simple hp damage or 'psychic damage' or even a new 'morale' damage type (though that hardly seems different enough to be worth it, you never know how much symantics might matter). To model that less abstractly, the Warlord could be given a 'morale attack' that imposes a condition, reduces AC or saves, causes the next attack that hits to be a critical, or quite a lot of other things, including inflicting damage, but not to 0, or with enemy fleeing at 0 or whatever.
5e is really pretty wide-open when it comes to available/hypothetical mechanics.
 
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Nod. Examples from RL, such as a victim of a 'curse' giving up on life and wasting away, do take a while to manifest. A sudden morale failure certainly could be immediately fatal in combat, but the proximate cause of that fatality would still be a physical injury, just one sustained as the result of giving up or panicking in the midst of battle. In ancients and medieval battles, for instance, the greatest casualties were generally inflicted upon the losing side after their morale broke.

A very abstract way of modeling that could be simple hp damage or 'psychic damage' or even a new 'morale' damage type (though that hardly seems different enough to be worth it, you never know how much symantics might matter). To model that less abstractly, the Warlord could be given a 'morale attack' that imposes a condition, reduces AC or saves, causes the next attack that hits to be a critical, or quite a lot of other things, including inflicting damage, but not to 0. 5e is really pretty wide-open when it comes to available/hypothetical mechanics.

It's an observable fact that far more people stop fighting not because they're unconscious and dying (very silly in itself as the only possible result of injury) but because they no longer believe they can win. Whether that's by running away, surrendering, 'collapsing' because of an injury that's either trivial or even non-existent; these are all observed effects. Every one of those things could be handled by someone with the skills to motivate people into making one more effort, a 'Warlord' or similar class based around morale effects. Without any specific morale rules then the easiest way to model this - for people who want D&D to be more of a simulation, that is - is to let hit points do the duty of defining when individuals give up on a fight.
 

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