Fiddling with Fighters

[steeldragons]

Having some fun with fighter archetypes...

How do these look?

The Dwarven Defender
The elite fighters of the dwarven clan-holds are the Dwarven Defenders. They are exceptional warriors of incredible durability and strength, capable of holding a line firm against waves of goblinoids and giantkin that assault their mountain strongholds or subterranean homes.

Prerequisite: The PC that chooses this martial archetype must be a dwarf (either subrace) of Lawful alignment.

3rd: Defender Stance
At 3rd level you learn a variety of stances that grant you power in battle. They are the hallmark of the Dwarven Defender’s fighting style. The Defender can initiate a Stance as a bonus action. Once begun, a Stance can be maintained for 1 minute as long as the dwarf does not move. The dwarf may end the stance at any time they wish.

• Mountain’s Durability: You gain advantage to all Constitution rolls. Also, you add your Constitution modifier to your AC.
• Immovable Object: You can not be moved from your location or suffer the prone condition unless first restrained or incapacitated.
• Unstoppable Force: Add your level + Constitution modifier as temporary HP until the stance is ended.
• Strength of the Stone: You gain advantage on any Strength rolls. Also, you add your proficiency bonus to damage rolls with melee weapon attacks.
• Against the Rock: For save rolls that would normally use Dexterity, the Defender can use their Constitution modifier with the roll instead of Dexterity.

At 9th level, the defender can use two stances at once (requiring 2 bonus actions, as normal, on two different turns). At 16th the defender can use three stances (invoking each as an action or bonus action on successive turns, as normal).

Trap Sense
You have advantage to Perception and Investigation rolls to detect traps. You have advantage to save rolls to avoid damage caused by traps.

7th: Damage Reduction: The defender can shirk off some damage from most melee blows. As a reaction, when you take damage, you can “spend” a HD [d10] while in battle and reduce the damage of the attack by your roll. This may be done once + Con. modifier times before requiring a short or long rest. At 14th level, this increases to 2 + Con. mod. times. At 19th level, 3 + Con. mod. times.

If the roll exceeds the damage dealt, the leftover is discarded, i.e. You can not replace HP with a HD used for Damage Reduction, only lessen (or cancel out) damage taken.

10th: Pivoting Stance: You may move up to 5’ on your turn and maintain the benefit your Defender Stance(s) in effect.

15th: Magic Resistance: You have resistance to damage caused by magic spells and effects.

18th: Mobile Stance: You may move up to half your normal movement rate and maintain the benefit your Defender Stance(s) in effect.

 

[steeldragons]

Moved over from my Ranger Rehash thread...since we're doing Fighter's here.

The Cavalier
The Cavalier is the best there is at what they do, fight while mounted (typically a horse, but other land-based animals and eventually flying or underwater mounts are also possible). Traditionally viewed as the mounted knight-in-shining-armor with their lance or spear, a cavalier could easily be represented as expert lightly-armored archers (such as the Mongols or Persians were reputed to be), chainmail-clad elfin stag-riding knights, and jungle-tribal-gnomes who bond with local panthers or wolves. The only real necessity of the cavalier’s concept is they have a mount and prefer/excel atop them. Typically possessed of a forceful presence and charisma, as useful in training their animal ally as mastering their fellow men, cavaliers often make welcomed as protectors of their communities and valued advisors (if not leaders) to their militias or armed forces.

3rd: Strength of Character
The Cavalier replaces Constitution with Charisma as a saving throws proficiency. For ability rolls that would normally use Constitution, the cavalier may their Charisma score/modifier instead, if it is higher.

Additionally, once per short rest, as a full action, the cavalier can present themselves in such an encouraging and supportive light, that allies within 20’ radius who can see the cavalier add the cavalier’s Cha. modifier to a save roll of the cavalier’s choice. The area is extended to a 50’ radius when the cavalier is atop their mount.

Mounted Expert
At 3rd level you gain a Medium (for Small PCs) or Large (for Medium PCs) land-based animal companion of CR 1 or less that accompanies you on your adventures as loyal mount. The mount may possess an enlightened intelligence or simply exceptional training, but they obey verbal and tactile commands (such as leg pressure), as best it can within its natural ability. The mount is an NPC that takes its turn on your initiative and can attack independently of the cavalier, except as noted below. The cavalier’s bond with and special training of the mount provides them with the following mutual benefits:

• Expert Trainer: You add your proficiency bonus to the animal’s AC, attack rolls and damage rolls, as well as to any saving throws or skills in which it is proficient.
• Tough Creature: Its HP maximum equals normal maximum or 4 times your fighter level, whichever is higher
• Mounted Combatant: You gain advantage for any weapon attack made from atop your mount.
• Ride as One: Your mount moves its full movement rate with up to double encumbrance. You and your mount do not suffer exhaustion levels for wearing or travelling in armor. Neither you nor your mount suffer a first level of exhaustion for distance, difficult terrain or other environmental conditions travelled until they have gone double the normal time for exhaustion to accrue. Follwoing the first, exhaustion levels accrue normally.
• Valorous Charge: Given 20’ or more to charge your enemies, you and your mount attack as one (in a single action). Both you and your mount add your Charisma modifier to attack and damage rolls. The Valorous Charge can only be used for one attack of the fighter’s turn but requires the mounts full attack. i.e. A 5th level fighter with 2 attacks can use their second attack against a target within reach after the Valorous Charge, but the mount’s attack for the turn has been used, unless the creature possesses the multiattack feature.

At 9th level, the cavalier can bond to two mounts of a quality that grant the above benefits. At 16th the cavalier can have three chosen mounts.

When a new mount is possible or if a mount is lost for any reason, the cavalier requires a minimum of 1 month of (in-game) downtime to train and bond with a new mount well-enough to receive the above benefits.

7th: Issue Challenge: On your turn, you issue a challenge to melee or mounted combat to a creature within 50’ that can see and hear you. This distance is extended to 100’ if you are mounted. Whether the target understands your language or not (your body language, tone and forceful presence are all very clear), the creature must make a Wisdom save to beat DC 8 + proficiency bonus + Charisma modifier. If failed, the creature must use its turn to move its full and fastest rate to engage the cavalier. The cavalier may only have on such creature engaged in a “challenge” at a time. The challenge is ended when either party reaches 0 HP, surranders or the cavalier does not use their action to attack. Once ended, the target is immune to challenges from the cavalier for the next 24 hours.

10th: Mounted Superiority: You can bond to mounts that are one size category larger than you previously could. You can bond to mounts that have a flight or swim speed.
The cavalier and mount now gain the following additional traits:

• Shared Respite: When you spend HD on a short or long rest to regain HP, your expert tending transfers up to half your HD to heal your mount. Also, when using the fighter’s Second Wind feature, your mount uses its bonus action to receive the same benefit.
• Extra Attacks: Your mount can make extra attacks, using your Extra Attacks, instead of yourself.
• Applied Expertise: You gain the benefits of Mounted Expert traits when riding any creature of the same kind as your bounded mount.

15th: Unflappable: You gain immunity from the frightened condition. You add your Charisma modifier to all save rolls against magics or effects that aim to charm, confuse or otherwise alter the cavalier’s mind or emotions.

18th: Last Stand (courtesy of Quickleaf)
At 18th level, you cannot die from damage while your challenged enemy remains undefeated. This includes dying from taking massive damage, but not effects that kill without dealing damage, such as the Power Word Kill spell. If your challenged enemy dies or falls unconscious, or you end a round without having attacked your challenged enemy, this effect ends and you begin to die as normal.

 

[Quartz]

The bonus to AC from Mountain's Durability is a bit good: Plate + Shield + MD could give an AC of 25 quite early on. I think it needs a significant balancing factor, such as attacking with Disadvantage or at -5. Or not being able to attack at all.

Strength of Character seems a bit poor compared with other 3rd level abilities. Perhaps giving Cha as an additional proficiency instead?

 

[steeldragons]

Yeah. I wasn't sure how that would play.

If, at best, you have an AC of 25, in the single place you are stanced (until later features allow movement, at least), is that so bad/unbalanced for a dwarven defender? Being hard to hit/not taking damage and impossible to move is kind of their thing, isn't it?

Attacking with disadvantage seems...unduly penalizing. They must still be good at fighting...

Maybe adding proficiency bonus to AC instead?...so it still grows with the characters levels but doesn't become very difficult to surmount until the higher levels...Do you think that would seem less unbalanced/-ing?

Edit: I thought I did give Charisma as a proficiency...oh, in general you mean, not just save rolls? Yeah,, sure. I could see that.

 

[Quickleaf]

Lol I just posted comments on your Cavalier in the other thread.

Your Dwarven Defender does raise a conceptual question: Where do we draw the line with sub-classes being specific or having requisites?

Personally I love the concept, think it has good traction, and at first blush your conversion effort isn't broken (meaning, it's quite good!). But is there a compelling reason to include a racial and alignment requisite? Obviously, this is for your games, but I think it does raise a greater question about our expectations of professional game designers.

EDIT: Some brainstorms for other potential fighter sub-classes...

Legacy Magic Item Wielder
Mercenary
Monster Slayer
Myrmidon/Legionnaire/Phalanx
The Once and Future King / Hero of Destiny
Veteran
Warlord

From [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]
Folk-hero (a background in 5e)
Gladiator
Marauder
Vanguard

From DRAGON AGE
Berserker (a barbarian thing in 5e)
Champion
Reaver
Templar

 

[Manbearcat]

From [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]
Folk-hero (a background in 5e)
Gladiator
Marauder
Vanguard

Just to quickly clarify the conceptual space I'm intending for each of these to cover to minimize archetype overlap (eg Dwarven Defender/Legionnaire/Vanguard).

Folk-hero: Rises from the rank and file to become larger than life due to an amazing transcendence of station or an impressive series of deeds. Joan of Arc.

Gladiator: Whether born in the pits/arena or enslaved into them, developed tradecraft to not only survive, but to thrive. Spartacus.

Marauder: Roving conqueror with no home yet lays claim all he can see. Attila the Hun.

Vanguard: Ever the tip of the spear for your people, you protect the gates and narrow passes as enemies break upon you in wave after wave. King Leonidas.

 

[steeldragons]

So, here is the Cavalier's "Strength of Character" official rewrite...better?

Strength of Character
The Cavalier gains proficiency with Charisma ability rolls and saving throws. For ability rolls that would normally use Constitution, the cavalier can use their Charisma score/modifier instead if it is higher.

Also, allies within 20’ radius who can see the cavalier add the cavalier’s Cha. modifier to a save roll of the cavalier’s choice. The area is extended to a 50’ radius when the cavalier is atop their mount. The cavalier must complete a long or short rest before they may lend their Strength of Character to allies again.

 

[steeldragons]

Personally I love the concept, think it has good traction, and at first blush your conversion effort isn't broken (meaning, it's quite good!). But is there a compelling reason to include a racial and alignment requisite? Obviously, this is for your games, but I think it does raise a greater question about our expectations of professional game designers.r

This is a great topic/question...and like always with D&D I don't think there's a set answer but a shifting/mutable line that differs from table-to-table, playstyles and other preferences.

It is obvious to me that a class called "Dwarven Defender" would be for dwarf's only...but then here comes the munchin/powergamer saying "HEY! Why can't I multi-class into that! I want those powers too! I am entitled! You're not being fair to me/my preferred playstyle/whine/whine/whine..."

So, let's just say, outright, "Dwarf's only!" So there's a prereq. Honestly, I just added the lawful since that's what the SRD said, but honestly, I see little reason to include an alignment restriction...here.

But I see little to no problem, for highly specialized/niche archetypes that are popular and/or setting relevant that would/could have racial, alignment, or other restrictions. Dwarven Defenders...Warrior Women [another I'm writing up] for female only characters...my homebrewed "Sentinel" -for that BECM-feeling Fighter/Mage elf without needing to use multiclassing...alternately could be used as a swordmage or arcane archer for elves (maybe permit half-elves as well) only. I could see, for setting flavor specifics or games in where alignment still matters (like mine own ), stating a cavalier must be Lawful.

Even setting-specific things. For example, an artificer, as far as I am concerned, is an Eberron class. Period. I do not play in Eberron. You will never be permitted to play an artificer in a game I run/in my setting. No exceptions. No questions.

But I could easily write up an artifier class or subclass of my own...with the "Prereq: For use in the Eberron setting only." Solamic Knights and Wizards of High Sorcery that are "For use in the Draognlance setting only." etc...

So they can all still be Fighter or Wizard or whatever subclasses, respectively. But are only relevant for those settings/races/alignments specified.

Of course, as I said, this makes them all much more niche and story-flavor-specific than existing Fighter subclasses...and moreso than my currently posted cavalier, for example, is meant to be. Portraying, really, only a single (or very narrow) character concept.

 

[steeldragons]

Just to quickly clarify the conceptual space I'm intending for each of these to cover to minimize archetype overlap (eg Dwarven Defender/Legionnaire/Vanguard).

Folk-hero: Rises from the rank and file to become larger than life due to an amazing transcendence of station or an impressive series of deeds. Joan of Arc.

Gladiator: Whether born in the pits/arena or enslaved into them, developed tradecraft to not only survive, but to thrive. Spartacus.

Marauder: Roving conqueror with no home yet lays claim all he can see. Attila the Hun.

Vanguard: Ever the tip of the spear for your people, you protect the gates and narrow passes as enemies break upon you in wave after wave. King Leonidas.

While I strongly disagree that these all justify sufficient differences of flavor or "do something unique enough" in and of themselves to require subclasses of their own...

I can't help but think/notice/imagine the Marauder and Vanguard seem/sound like two different sides of the same coin...a coin that might be called, say, a Warlord.

If, say, one were to consider/make Warlord a stand alone class instead of a fighter subclass (if Sorcerer is justified in its existence, at all, and Barbarian sufficient to be its own class vs. a Berserker Fighter subclass...), these make great subclass names/concepts for that!

But who around here would be interested in doing that?! <whistles innocently>

 

[Quartz]

So, here is the Cavalier's "Strength of Character" official rewrite...better?

Strength of Character
The Cavalier gains proficiency with Charisma ability rolls and saving throws. For ability rolls that would normally use Constitution, the cavalier can use their Charisma score/modifier instead if it is higher.

Much better.

Also, allies within 20’ radius who can see the cavalier add the cavalier’s Cha. modifier to a save roll of the cavalier’s choice. The area is extended to a 50’ radius when the cavalier is atop their mount. The cavalier must complete a long or short rest before they may lend their Strength of Character to allies again.

How about simplifying it such that anyone who can clearly see and identify the cavalier gets the benefit? If the cavalier is mounted, then more footsoldiers can see him. Yes this would typically be 50', but consider a giant-sized cavalier atop a roc.

You could simplify the mechanics and say that the cavalier gives Inspiration to everyone. This is a cleaner and more thematically appropriate interpretation of the boost given to the targets. And it's more fun to roll that extra die!