D&D 5E When to Roll Initiative

No faster than anybody else, at a run. In d20 3.5, base human speed is 30 feet per round. Run is x4 Speed.

I thought we were talking about 5E in this forum?

Edit: oh, I see. You were relating a historical anecdote about how things used to work in 3.5, which is what you were playing you decided you liked cyclic initiative better. I didn't catch that the first time I read your story.
 

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No faster than anybody else, at a run. In d20 3.5, base human speed is 30 feet per round. Run is x4 Speed.

5e has no built-in mechanic for moving any faster than "Dash", other than possibly Rogues taking a second Dash action as part of Cunning Action. Not saying that it's not an appropriate thing to allow under some circumstances — but I'd rule it more individually.

In the particular example you gave, the per-turn initiative really has no impact on the believability of that scenario. It takes Able a while to string his bow. How far Zarl has managed to travel before he can get a shot off is entirely dependent on their respective reaction times (ie initiative). Able might be able to get his first shot off quickly, and then stumble a little bit on his second shot. Zarl might stutter step a little bit, falling behind a bit for one round.

On the other hand, I imagine that I could come up with examples where a character moving continuously at high speeds breaks down the illusion of simultaneity. Everything up to initiative 13, for instance, happens to Zarl at position x_0 (30', say), and everything after initiative 13 happens at x_1 (150'). The problem is not one of varying initiative — Zarl still jumps 120', regardless of whether he does it on the same initiative or a different one — but one of continuous action with a duration equal to the duration of the round, with meaningful states at every point. In other words, the problem is one of movement. Nobody cares what is happening up until Able actually fires his shot, because all we really care about is whether or not it hits. But the various states of Zarl's movement mean something to us, so it is weird to just skip over them in one flick of the initiative.

For this reason, I think it is no accident that even "Dashing" in 5e moves a normal human little more than a brisk walk for 6 seconds. Under most circumstances, characters moving in combat are not moving at a constant velocity for the entire duration of the combat round. They are starting, stopping, turning around, taking little moments of cover behind obstacles, looking for the moment to advance. I dunno. I've never tried to walk across a battlefield, so I'm sort of winging this, but you get the idea. I think, in the case of your sprinting Zarl, if it mattered for the resolution of other actions, I'd probably break his movement up into 4 discrete moves at initiatives 20, 15, 10 and 5. For the round that he decides to start sprinting, his initiative roll would probably determine just how many increments of 30 feet he could actually manage, at a minimum of 60. (So, if Zarl rolls an 11 on his initiative, he is slow to start sprinting while everybody else is chopping and shooting at him, only making 30 feet and init 10 and another 30 feet at init 5. If he rolls a 21, he's running the second Able's hand starts reaching for his bow, and he gets all 120' before Able has his bow strung.) If Zarl is just going to continue sprinting for each consecutive turn, no need to roll initiative — he's just continuing his action from last turn. Maybe an increasingly difficult athletics check?

Anyway, thanks for the brief thought experiment!

--EDITED TO ADD--

While I know all this talk of non-cyclical initiative is a bit of a derail, I'll finish by saying — every "problem" I solve when moving from cyclical initiative to non-cyclical initiative results in, to my mind, much more elegant solution than the original, with no additional cost, other than the cost of having to roll and possibly recalculate initiative every round. Which is not everyone's cup of tea.

On the other hand, I hate writing down and tracking initiative at the start of combat. With the short length of 5e combats, being able to just keep the d20 with your initiative roll face up in front of you saves me time vs having to go around, ask everybody's initiative, write them down, figure out the order, etc.
 
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Late, but:

The general rule for us is that initiative is rolled whenever a hostile action is being taken by a PC or NPC. Sometimes, it's immediately after the first hostile action.

We also roll initiative when multiple people are going to try to take actions at the same time. If that's not happening or the actions don't conflict with each other then there's no need. However, often player A will list 3 things that take 1 minute each, and player B will mention one thing that takes a single action and then they both want to know what happens. This basically stops the players from overwhelming the DM. We usually have 6-8 players. Sometimes it's necessary.

We also roll initiative whenever the DM or player asks for it. Players and DMs sometimes do it to get a more discrete sense of time. Whenever time needs to be tracked round-to-round, it's often useful to establish an initiative even if there's not much purpose for it other than timekeeping.
 

About the only thing I do that's different from the standard rules is to give the character who starts a fight the initiative automatically.

So if everyone is just talking and you say "I punch the other guy in the face" I start initiative, but put you at the top. I did this at the request of the players who were unhappy at the character who started the fight sometimes going last and even having their action become irrelevant.
My problem with this is that it sucks to be a player when this situation is reversed:

"You are standing there talking to the guy. He pulls out a sword and...crits you, you take 25 damage. I guess you die."
"Wait, I just stood there and watched him pull out a sword and stab me and I didn't have a chance to react? I have a 20 dex. I'm really fast. I want to maybe disarm him or kill him before he attacks me or at least get to use the dodge action."

Unfortunately, when rounds are 6 seconds long you were periodically run into "weirdness" with the initiative system. This is one of these cases. But if described correctly, it's not that bad.

Just say something like "Alright, you step forward to get within range to punch the other guy in the face and as you are about to he sees the intention to attack him in your eyes and in your body language and stance. He pulls out a sword and stabs you in the gut lightning fast before you have a chance to throw your punch. It's your turn. Do you still want to punch him?"

But, I've said in the previous post that if you think everyone around you would actually be thrown off guard by your attack because they have absolutely NO idea you are about to start a fight(like you ask someone to get in close so you can whisper something into their ear then draw a dagger in a way that's shielded from sight) then I'll still give someone a surprise round, which amounts to letting them go first. Normally to get this advantage in my games you need to make a Deception, Slight of Hand, or Stealth check or you don't get the surprise round. Basically, there has to be some REASON you get the benefit. Otherwise, I'll assume that there is enough time between you starting to attack and finishing the attack that someone else might have time to react. Heck, I might even give you advantage on initiative for initiating a battle when no one was expecting it without any tricks.
 

Because the rule only has a material effect on one subclass of the rogue. Otherwise it provides a negligible, barely noticeable advantage not worth writing a house rule over. I'm not the only DM. I don't feel like writing a house rule, ensuring I get the ok of the other DM, and making sure the players understand the difference. If someone else wants to run it, then I have to ensure they understand the difference. A major reason I switched to 5E was to toss out my overly large and growing Pathfinder house rule document. I want to keep my 5E document tiny. At the moment my 5E house rule document is one, uncrowded page. I want to keep it that way for the core books. If the Assassin becomes an underused archetype because of the clarification, so be it. I can live with that, even if I don't like it. If someone asks me about the rogue I tell them to play the Arcane Trickster if they want to optimize and anything they want if they prefer the flavor of another archetype. The Assassin can still be fun, but it isn't optimal.

I would like to point out that WotC has sated several times, that some of the rules are written in a way that the DM is the final word on how it is played. Remember this version is supposed to be story over rules.
 

I would like to point out that WotC has sated several times, that some of the rules are written in a way that the DM is the final word on how it is played. Remember this version is supposed to be story over rules.

Rules should still make sense and be consistent across tables in my opinion. I do not think the way surprise is currently configured makes sense because I do not think a person that is unaware of an enemy should be able to take a turn before the unseen enemy attacks. Awareness should be required for a turn to be taken when completely surprised.
 

Rules should still make sense and be consistent across tables in my opinion. I do not think the way surprise is currently configured makes sense because I do not think a person that is unaware of an enemy should be able to take a turn before the unseen enemy attacks. Awareness should be required for a turn to be taken when completely surprised.

Then that is the way you should play it.
 


I would roll before the attack. That's what initiative is for, in my estimation--to see how fast combatants react.

Two people are sitting at a bar. They start to have words. One hauls off and swings at the other. Roll nish just before the attack is made. If the target fails, then he didn't see it coming. He couldn't react in time.

If the target makes the nish roll, then he's up on things. A twitch of the other guy's shoulder, and the intended target moves like lightning and swings first. Or, maybe he gets up from the chair and walks to a table.

For the guy that was going to hit, he can still move to the table and then take the swing, if he wants. But, it's on his turn.




With a dragon, of course, the thing can fly and move a long distance. If the assassin wasn't stealthy, then roll nish before the assassin's attack. If the dragon wins and decides to move, too bad for the assassin.

If the dragon didn't know about the assassin (the assassin was stealthy), then the assassin attacks in a Surprise round.

I believe I would ask for initiative, but give advantage to the one doing the first swing. And I would make it only a standard action instead of a full round.
 

It looks like the spectrum (if you can call it that) is even more varied and complicated than I had anticipated. It seems that the overriding determinant for using initiative is when it's useful for ordering events, but there seems to be some variation on when that's necessary. Some are saying that's only when someone has declared, or has already made, a hostile action. Others use initiative to order actions between PCs when there is no encounter, at least not with another group, which I would probably say falls a bit outside the discussion since I'm specifically asking about the "combat encounter". Those types of "initiative rolls" I would consider more generally to be Dexterity contests between PCs that don't relate directly to the mechanics associated with the combat round. However, some are saying both at the same time, which is fine. Contested checks have varied applications.

I haven't kept up with the thread as it's grown, but I'd like to respond to some of the comments, so I'll just do that in the order they came up.

My answer is - it depends... In short - I don't have any hard rules, I call initiative when it feels right to call it.

First of all, I like, "it depends." It sounds like for you the "triggering event" is based on how you, as DM, feel the tension is building up to the point of initiative being rolled. That's a consideration that hadn't occurred to me in my opening post as my style tends to be more simulationist than narrativist.

I usually follow your method, but possibly not at long distance where not much is actually going to happen.

As for long distance, I don't have my DMG in front of me, but it gives some distances for range of vision under optimal conditions, or am I remembering the playtest? Anyway, the point is that encounter distance, according to the figures given, could conceivably be something like two miles on a clear day, but I have never set up an encounter where that kind of distance was in use. Not that I never would, but there's usually some kind of intervening topography or trees or whatever, which cuts down visibility to within longbow range at most, so the problem of not much happening hasn't really come up for me.

What I think would be useful are some kind of parameters for distances that sound travels under various conditions. When I've looked into this to establish these things for myself I've been unable to find conclusive numbers for a normal range of hearing. There seems to be a lot of disagreement on the internet over how far away certain sounds can be credibly heard, and humidity, and wind direction and speed seem to play an important role. By my own calculations, the sound of normal conversation drops to the volume of a quiet whisper from about 100' away, which seems like a good benchmark for hearing creatures that aren't trying to be stealthy, but I'm no expert in acoustics and haven't verified my numbers yet.

Something else I forgot to mention in my opening post are the rules for chases in the DMG. This is an initiative-based system for resolving chases and, to me, falls squarely under the umbrella of the combat encounter. Since a chase is mostly movement taking place, it could happen before or after actual fighting, or even without any fighting occurring at all, so it's clear to me that hostile actions, meaning actual attacks, are not really a prerequisite for rolling initiative. In my opinion, it might have been better to have given rules for "encounters", rather than for "combat", but that really just boils down to semantics.

Often a fight starts mid conversation, or a fight is interrupted by a conversation, then starts again and initiative is rerolled.

You see, I wouldn't re-roll necessarily, unless there had been a shift of both parties attitudes away from hostility, because I see this as the continuation of the same encounter. Under normal rules you only roll initiative once and that order holds for the entire encounter, so I'd probably only re-roll if I was using the speed factor variant, which I'm not currently doing, but I am planning on trying it out.
 

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