D&D 5E When to Roll Initiative

[Hriston]

I would just ask for another stealth check to gain surprise again. Just leaving the current encounter and start the next. To gain surprise again you have to reposition your group and make another stealth check.

Right, what I ask for is that the party actually removes beyond encounter distance before initiative can be re-rolled when it returns.

 

[epithet]

That's usually how it's done, isn't it? I, for one, would never have someone roll a death save while fully conscious and in perfect health. I think it would cheapen the mechanic.

If he interrupts my archvillain's expository monolog with a fart joke, that fart joke better be really funny or else... make a death save!

Kidding. I'm that cruel, but I'm a lot more devious.

 

[Hriston]

I'm sorry, but that just makes no sense at all.

So if your party sneaks up on the orcs' campsite undetected, and they remain hidden to listen to the warchief's orders or to make sure they see all the prisoners they're hoping to rescue, that when they subsequently burst out of hiding - having been undetected the whole time - the orcs would not be surprised?

You cannot lose surprise until you are detected, unless the surprised creatures are threatened by some other thing that puts them on alert. You can say that surprise only happens in the first round of combat, but a round in which the attackers remain hidden and undetected and do not attack is not a round of combat, it is a round of watching and waiting.

It's a round of the combat encounter the way I play it. Sorry it makes no sense to you. I think I did a pretty good job of explaining why it makes sense to me. In your example, the players are getting something in exchange for losing the element of surprise. They are getting valuable information about the chief's plans and about the prisoners they are trying to rescue. Without that information, attacking might be totally pointless. From my point of view, also giving them a surprise attack is like having your cake and eating it too.

 

[Celtavian]

That's usually how it's done, isn't it? I, for one, would never have someone roll a death save while fully conscious and in perfect health. I think it would cheapen the mechanic.

Greedo's cold, dead eyes stare vacantly at you, as though cursing you for mocking him with a death save roll.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Right, what I ask for is that the party actually removes beyond encounter distance before initiative can be re-rolled when it returns.

I believe there usually is no other chance than that, because you need to set up another ambush...

 

[Hriston]

I believe there usually is no other chance than that, because you need to set up another ambush...

Right, there's no guarantee of getting surprise next time, so my thinking is use it while you've got it.

 

[Hriston]

I know that we're talking about 5E, but I want to mention how 3E "officially" did it, because it was such a big change from what I was used to (and I didn't think the 3E way worked at all). Many people ignored it, or didn't notice it, but in 3E, initiative was supposed to be thrown as soon as an enemy is perceived (usually seen). There's even an example in the DMG where the initiative count is kept through a closed door with orcs on the other side. In my game, I would wait further, until an actual attack was made. But, in 3E, if you read the rules, says to throw initiative when enemies are sighted. For me, this is wrong because it assumes every encounter will be a combat encounter. Players shouldn't have to fight every orc, every goblin. But, I guess that method served the wargaming-esque roots of 3E (encouraged to use miniatures and maps).

I'll have to check out 3E (never played it) because that sounds like the way I like to do it and the way I understand the AD&D rules as well. I'd be curious if there was a significant difference in the 3E surprise rules because of this, because in 1E surprise was pretty much the same (one or more segments of denied action for the surprised party).

 

[Water Bob]

I'll have to check out 3E (never played it) because that sounds like the way I like to do it and the way I understand the AD&D rules as well. I'd be curious if there was a significant difference in the 3E surprise rules because of this, because in 1E surprise was pretty much the same (one or more segments of denied action for the surprised party).

3E Surprise rules are much different than AD&D. Surprise is only possible if one side does not realize the other exists, as in an ambush situation. And, all Surprise is in 3E is half a combat round. Characters can either attack or move but not both. Once Surprise is over (after those with surprise either attack or move), then initiative is thrown to govern the rest of the combat.

 

[Hriston]

3E Surprise rules are much different than AD&D. Surprise is only possible if one side does not realize the other exists, as in an ambush situation. And, all Surprise is in 3E is half a combat round. Characters can either attack or move but not both. Once Surprise is over (after those with surprise either attack or move), then initiative is thrown to govern the rest of the combat.

Yeah, that's pretty different from both editions with similarities to both as well. It sounds like the requirements are the same as 5E (one side unnoticed), and that initiative is handled like in 1E (after surprise is resolved). However, the overall result sounds less punitive than in either edition. Is that about right?

 

[Hriston]

One of my pet peeves is initiative being rolled when there is no combat. I dislike when the DM turns to me and says "It's your turn. What do you do?" and my response is "Why would I do anything out of the ordinary. I don't see any enemies, there is no combat taking place." It completely ruins the advantage of having a high initiative and it entirely negates certain abilities(like the rogue's advantage if he attacks before his enemy has had their turn yet). Not only that but it wastes time and turns as half the group has to say "I guess I do nothing since there's nothing to attack".

I wasn't sure how this could happen, or why a DM would do this. It sounds like you're talking about a situation where both parties are surprised. I haven't said how I'd handle this situation if it ever comes up, although with surprise being as difficult to get as it is in 5E, I don't think it would be very often. At best there's usually only a few people on each side that are surprised in an encounter. Then I looked at the surprise rules in the SRD. It has an odd way of dealing with both sides being unaware. It says you skip the surprise round and move on to normal initiative. If both sides are unaware of each other, I'm not sure what's supposed to happen after that. It seems the designers were determined for there to be an encounter anyway.

AD&D is similar in that surprise on both sides cancels out, but surprise in AD&D is a little different because it assumes you are standing face to face with an opponent of which you were previously unaware. You'd get a free segment or so in which your opponent was unable to act due to their lack of preparedness, but there was no doubt the encounter had already occurred.

This is very different from the situation in 5E where you can begin an encounter from hiding. If your opponents are completely unaware of you, you may have the opportunity to avoid a fight altogether while your opponents are surprised. If both sides are surprised, they may not, in fact, ever notice each other at all, and strict adherence to the rules would have you running a first round in which no one can do much of anything. I agree that rolling initiative and moving on to round one makes little sense in this scenario. I would most likely just tell the players they don't notice anyone, but then there's the issue of what happens if they stop hiding and give their location away to the other side. I'm beginning to think that the best way to handle it would be to ignore the encounter entirely. The two parties simply sneak past each other without alerting one another to their presence. I seem to recall that the playtest had some language to that effect.

Initiative should only be rolled the second BOTH parties become aware of each other AND a hostile action is ABOUT to take place.

What if a hostile action is what makes one party aware of the other? Shouldn't you roll initiative before that action is declared, or just before it is resolved?

If the PCs don't spot the enemies, then there is a surprise round as the enemies get a round of attacks before moving on to the first round of combat. If the enemies don't spot the PCs, the same thing happens.

Shouldn't initiative be rolled before this to adjudicate things like when a creature is no longer surprised and can take reactions?

If SOME of the PCs spot the enemies then they get to act during the surprise round. If they roll higher initiative than the enemies it just means they have spotted them a split second before they attacked. They see the swords in their hands, they see their bows trained on the party, they know they are maybe half a second away from attacking. They have a chance to get in the first strike before the enemies do.

This is also why I don't let people get free attacks simply by saying "I attack" while out of combat. It isn't fair and it removes the enemies ability to react faster than the attacker. I like the idea that someone can raise a sword to attack and someone on the other side is so fast that they draw their sword and stab them in the gut before their swing finishes. Though I allow people to get surprise rounds against an enemy that is watching them if I think the enemy is sufficiently distracted or caught completely by surprise by the attack.

I absolutely agree with all of this, except the last part. I only award surprise when it's the result of an attempt to be stealthy, not for other surprising events.