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Gaming Style Assumptions That Don't Make Sense

If you're going to nitpick when I say a railroad instead of railroading...

As I 'nitpick' a difference between a person being foolish and being a fool, or as I 'nitpick' between a person lying and a person being a liar, or as I 'nitpick' between a person doing something stupid and a person being stupid, and indeed lots of other similar common distinctions in how the English language is used.

Let's revisit the irony.

Railroading isn't necessarily needed: the PCs could simply be allowed to pick a general direction, with the DM redirecting that to whatever the nearest adventure site is.

I guess you are saying that there is absolutely no resemblance between railroading someone and picking them up and whisking them away straight to the nearest adventure? No reason to even compare the techniques, huh? Because you know, one is something bad other people do and the other is something you do with the best of intentions? I must just be 'nitpicking' to even see a resemblance? Even ignoring that 'railroad' is RPG technical jargon, there is no way anyone could think that "the DM redirecting that to whatever the nearest adventure site is", is anything like "pressing someone to do something by rushing or coercing them", right?

That whole, "it says nothing about what they do when they get there", assertion cuts both ways, and therefore says nothing about whether the act of whisking them away to a location you choose is or is not on rails. The separateness of it is not what justifies your claim that the first action isn't "railroading", but rather it is what condemns it.

Gee thanks.

You are welcome.
 
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I guess you are saying that there is absolutely no resemblance between railroading someone and picking them up and whisking them away straight to the nearest adventure?

In the direction they choose to go.

What I'm envisaging is something like this:

"If the PCs decide to go to Waterdeep, they go to Waterdeep.

If the PCs choose to take on the Death Cult, they take on the Death Cult.

If the PCs choose to {other adventures}, then {they have other adventures}.

If the PCs travel North, they find themselves at Mount Fire.

If the PCs travel {NW, W, SW, S, SE, E, NE} then {seven other sites}"

What it doesn't say, but what remains an option, is that if the PCs instead choose to chase their tails, interact with incidental NPCs, engage in shopping trips, or whatever, then they can do that - they'll probably have a less-than-satisfying game, but if that's their choice then so be it.

The only thing that is off the table is the option where they accidentally fall into a bad experience.

There are plenty of choices there, and they are meaningful choices - none of this "well, you can choose that, but you're choosing not to play", nor is merely a choice of what to do first (as is so often true of Paizo's AP adventures).

And, incidentally, I said nothing about whisking them off, either. By all means play out the journey, and if (during, or as a consequence of that journey) the PCs choose to change their minds then that's fine too. But if they don't, and they've chosen to head North, they're going to get to Mount Fire.
 

You are still trying to prove that the act of railroading someone doesn't make your game a railroad, something I not only conceded several posts ago, but which was part of my original point to begin with. Yes, it's great that you offer so much agency to your players, and yes its great that you allow your players to get off the railroad, and yes I do think that the railroad to Mount Fire is justifiable, but that doesn't make the railroad to Mount Fire any less of a railroad.

"But if they don't, and they've chosen to head North, they're going to get to Mount Fire."

Because they are on rails.
 



There's no point in discussing this further.

Probably not, but one more try, if only for the spectators.

If the PC's get to Mount Fire because the DM thinks that getting to Mount Fire because it makes for the most interesting game, it is an objectively different process of play than if the PC's get to Mount Fire because Mount Fire is due north of their current position and the PC's successfully navigate due north, or if the PC's get to Mount Fire because they are going in a generally north direction and the results of their random navigation brings them to Mount Fire, or any number of other processes which are mechanical and not fiat.

The PC's doing something because the DM thinks it makes for the most interesting game is what railroading is.

Yes, it may be true that having the PC's get to Mount Fire because the PC's declare that they are going generally North and Mount Fire is generally North but not perhaps straight and exactly North is the most artful thing the DM can do because it actually does make for the best game. It may be true that railroading the players to the good stuff is more artful than leaving them to flail around in a rowboat never finding something fun to do. But there is fundamentally a different process of play in choosing as a DM what happens based on what you feel would make for the best game, and choosing as a DM what happens based on a non-subjective process where you own feelings of what makes for the best game don't influence the outcome.

It is not at all true that every choice a DM makes or that every process of play amounts to choosing what happens based on the DM's belief of what makes for the best game. We can list all sorts of different ways to resolve what happens through travel that aren't setting the player's exact destination for them simply because they declare they are heading "generally north". I could probably list a half-dozen different processes of play for handling moving across a map, many of which don't amount to the DM choosing anything except for the particular mechanical process of play designed to churn out a non-arbitrary non-subjective answer based on player input. And were it true that every arbitration and every process of play was contingent on the DM's perception of what makes for the best game, then indeed that whole game would be on rails.

It's ok for a DM to decide what would make for the best game and make that happen. I'm validating that as oft times artful technique. I'm declaring invalid the declaration of the Sand Box purists that that should never happen and all the DM's arbitration should be neutral and mechanical with no consideration of whether something makes for a good game. I'm only advocating that even if you believe that is true, you should remain conscious of what your techniques are and their strengths and weaknesses.

To be honest, I'd never considered "fuzzy points of the compass" instead of the more powerful "fuzzy location of mountain" when doing Schrodinger's Map, but clearly it accomplishes the same thing albeit I think with more possibility of player rebellion once they recognize that they declared North and you interpreted it as North by North-East for your own purposes. As a practical matter, I'm worried that "fuzzy points of the compass" results in the player map and the GM map being objectively different, and I've known players that would go ballistic over that and demand a retcon.
 
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The PC's doing something because the DM thinks it makes for the most interesting game is what railroading is.

No. In the absence of other instruction from the players, it's just a matter of adjudication. There were many possible outcomes; the DM picked one.

In your essay, you correctly identified a number of techniques that are strongly associated with railroading. Where you've gone wrong is in declaring that any use of any of those techniques is automatically railroading.

It turns out that, as with all absolute rules, there are exceptions.

To be honest, I'd never considered "fuzzy points of the compass" instead of the more powerful "fuzzy location of mountain" when doing Schrodinger's Map

Indeed. May I suggest that you might want to think about what else you haven't yet considered.
 

But, be that as it may, there's the one from another side of that coin (or die, since we are gamers): "occasional fudging" = "no sense of tension".

I guess there's the tension of wondering whether the GM will fudge THIS time - or let the
dice stand. The problem there is that then if the GM does let the dice stand and PCs die,
it becomes his choice and his responsibility. Whereas if dice are rolled openly and not
fudged there is not the expectation that the GM should intervene.
 

The DM doesn't usually need to fudge the dice to keep PC's from dying left and right, and can let the dice fall where they may, if the DM has so cooked the scenes so that the math wildly favors the PC's. Lucky attack by a monster will drop a particular PC in one round? Try not to use such a monster. Monster has a save or die attack that the party can neither prep for nor recover from? Try not to use such a monster.

4e D&D's rules do this very successfully IMO. Whereas 3e/PF is terrible for the random pointless death (usually from a battleaxe crit in round 1, IME) and I guess that encourages fudging to mitigate.
 

No. In the absence of other instruction from the players, it's just a matter of adjudication. There were many possible outcomes; the DM picked one.

Fuzzy propositions by the player don't automatically give the DM the right to adjudicate the PC's actions as being congruent to the outcome he considers most interesting, and even if they did, the DM is not required to make that his primary concern.

1) The DM can refuse to rule on a fuzzy proposition until the player clarifies what exactly he means. "Do you go bear left, right, or go over the hill?" or "I can't figure out where you are going to go based on generally north. Pick an exact compass heading."
2) The DM can use the simplest and least vague meaning of the proposition, turning "generally north" into "due north".
3) The DM can determine exact bearing by either random selection (picking one of six hexes that are 'generally north' randomly to set the bearing) or by making the bearing 0 degrees plus or minus 9 degrees.
4) The DM can create some sort of random or skill informed walk plotting the PC's travels. For example, if on a hex map, the DM determines which hex is entered next by selecting from the hexes that are "north" of the current hex. In general, I tend to use this method, with a successful navigation check indicating you keep your desired heading and otherwise you drift into a neighboring hex and walk a bendy path. As a result, the players would very much have gone "generally" north, but at no time was I choosing for them their destination based on a desired plot (the pun intended).
5) The DM can pick where wants the players to end up based on what he thinks will be good for the game. This process of play is called "railroading".

It's a total copout to call it "just a matter of adjudication" as if railroading wasn't always a form of adjudication and railroading was the only possible process of adjudication and as if the GM had no option but to choose that one process of play that was railroading.

Fundamentally, we are arguing over the meaning of words. You are insisting that railroading because of its negative connotations is something negative, and therefore, if it isn't a negative then the thing is exempted from being railroading even if you agree that the exact same technique that is used in railroading is being used in this case. But this means you want the definition of "railroading" to be a value judgment, and inherently subjective, and I much prefer an actual objective definition. You are "railroading" when you use the techniques that are used to railroad. No exceptions, nor are exceptions required.

Fundamentally, where you've gone wrong is that your definition requires you to be the objective authority on when a technique is acceptable to use. If you used your technique, and were caught doing it, a player might accuse you of "railroading" them to Mount Fire. You would say, "Oh no I did not. You are wrong. I used a technique strongly associated with railroading, but I did it with the best of intentions because I thought it would be best for the game if you went to Mount Fire. You don't have to go into to Mount Fire, therefore it isn't railroading."

I would say, "Yep. You caught me. I absolutely did railroad you to Mount Fire because I didn't want you to be bored randomly wandering an empty wilderness and I didn't have enough content prepared to make a whole session of visiting those otherwise empty hexes interesting. Now you can get off the rail though, and if you'd rather I didn't put you on rails like that I won't do it again. Just understand that sometimes when you wander off the prepared portions of the map, what I improvise won't necessarily be as cool, intricate or well thought out as what I can prepare between sessions."

Beyond how the two of us would be thinking about this and the mental state we have, for all the verbiage we are quibbling over something very small. As a practical matter, the sorts of techniques that we think are justifiable don't differ at all or very much. It's how we prefer to label these techniques that differs. I'm saying, "All of these techniques are [objectively] railroading, but sometimes they are [subjectively] justifiable anyway." You are saying, "When these techniques are [subjectively] justifiable, they aren't [objectively] railroading." I think your formulation is a bit of nonsense, but as a practical matter the impact on what we'd advocate as good GMing practice isn't changing much.

Beyond the normal things that keep people thinking one way or the other, I've been trying to think why you consider your definition useful. The only thing I can think of is that it allows you to state something like, "Don't railroad." as a categorical absolute rule, something that can't be said under my definition. However, I don't think you can actually objectively explain what railroading is under your definition, making it just something "you know when you see it" and thus the categorical imperative would be meaningless as advice. As you yourself said, the definition of "sufficient" and "meaningful" agency is open to debate.

May I suggest that you might want to think about what else you haven't yet considered.

All the time. All the time. Indeed, I think much of the point of my definition is precisely that it gives you a better vantage point for thinking about what else you might not have considered.

And I did consider it; "fuzzy points of the compass" is definitely railroading. Right now I'm just trying to decide if it is a subcategory of "Schrondinger's Map" or deserves its own category. And one thing that did come out of this. I'm starting to feel I'm getting close to the Socratic definition of railroading.

But don't leave me hanging. What else do you think I haven't considered?
 

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