Gaming Style Assumptions That Don't Make Sense

Creamsteak

Explorer
At this point we're crossing whether it's a problem with the scenario or a problem with player attitudes.

Or a problem of communication or goals between the player and GM.

There are a lot of assumptions to potentially address before you can really define what's right or wrong with something as simple as whether "let the dice fall where they may" is good or bad for the game.
 

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Zhaleskra

Adventurer
Yes, I ran into that. A college group had an unwritten rule that you had to tell people when their characters would be at risk, which they didn't tell me about until after my players abandoned the adventure trilogy due to misunderstanding one word, and they all left. Sight unseen, unless it's Toon, I would assume death is on the table if nothing else is specified. I guess what I have trouble with is why many people automatically assume death is off the table?

I don't win by beating the players, I win when the players amuse me, come up with a clever plan, that sort of thing. As a note from a previous GM, I work to have pregens ready to go when a PC does die so the player doesn't have to stay out of the game for long.
 

Celebrim

Legend
At this point we're crossing whether it's a problem with the scenario or a problem with player attitudes. If you're losing a fight, RUN.

Everyone time this sort of thing is discussed, someone brings up the idea that players should just try to flee encounters that are too difficult for them. When this happens I wonder what the practical experience has been of this theory?

I've been running various editions of D&D for 30 years now, and in no edition of D&D was this ever a particularly practical solution.

1) In general, by the time you realize you are in over your head, it's too late to flee. This was true even in 1e AD&D where a generous subsystem existed for letting you evade monsters abstractly. The problem was getting the whole party disengaged successfully so you could utilize the subsystem was difficult. One issue is that in 1e A&D you took a proto 'attack of opportunity' if you tried to withdraw from melee. Worse, this attack was made against the character's back! If you wanted to actually survive 1e combat there were two basic rules: a) don't get surprised, and b) don't expose your back to the enemy. If you want to succeed in fleeing, you have to flee before you are engaged. But this decision is counter productive in most situations unless you have an easily recognized marker of difficulty.

But even more to the point, generally the realization that you need to flee occurs when the party suddenly finds its either about to take or has taken casualties. PC's take massive damage and someone is now either dead or will likely be on the monster's next action. In most D&D systems, combat only lasts 2-4 rounds on average. If you figure out even as early as round 1 that you are in trouble, it's probably too late to rationally flee. If you abandon the body to the monster, you probably can't raise the character. If you try to disengage, you are giving the monster at least 1 free round of attacks. Ninety percent of the time it is a vastly more rational strategy to risk the 1 round trying to kill the monster over granting the monster 1 free round while you try to disengage. This number can go up to 100% of the time depending on the DM.

2) Without an evasion subsystem, as in say 3e, you can't actually run from anything faster than you are. And most monsters are faster than the party, often by a good deal. So literally running away is often a non-strategy that will be countered and made into a useless throwing away of your action, unless you have a win button like sufficient Teleport prowess to whish away the whole party. Otherwise, you are far better off generally in every D&D system of turtling up, trying to get the monster to engage a different PC, or spending some sort of win button resource you've stock piled for this eventuality. And in general, if you are faster than the opponent, you probably also have been missile weapons and the best strategy is kiting it rather than fleeing it.

3) In practice, running away at your best possible speed is de facto splitting the party. This is called 'a rout', and as in real life, the moment a military unit routs is the moment it is most vulnerable. In ancient warfare, the vast majority of casualties that a force would endure usually occurred during the rout, when the defeated side was trying to run away, unit cohesion had broken down, individuals could no longer rely on the mutual defense of formations, and ones back was toward the weapons of the enemy. As a DM, many of the worst mass party deaths I've inflicted on the PC party occurred precisely because the group decided to run rather than stand and fight. Running in no way guarantees the monster will be less dangerous.

I think some DMs actually play with a house rule that is something like, "Since this encounter is unbalanced, if the PC's flee, then they should be rewarded with success." But this house rule is less than obvious unless you've experienced it.
 

Zhaleskra

Adventurer
Really? I've rarely had a D&D combat last fewer than five rounds unless something really anticlimactic happened?

Why does running away need a subsystem? Sure, until you're out of range, it's combat movement, but beyond that?

It took me a while to learn that casualty can mean "injured" and not just "dead". Yes, there are jerk GMs who deliberately cut off escape routes. Or do have a monster the PCs don't even have a slim hope of defeating. That's where I'd call it a flaw in judgement or just being a dick.
 

Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/her)
I think it boils down to whether you and your players emphasize the RP or the G more. I'll sometimes fudge die rolls to save PCs, or sometimes I'll let them die. I'll give the same treatment for my villains, when I feel it's appropriate. These are both usually regarded as anathema to the genre, but they fit the very specific role my game plays in the lives of my players. I see myself, and they see me, as a storyteller primarily, much more than someone administrating a game. So when a PC or NPC are in danger I always have to ask myself, what impact would this death have on the story we're creating. Death is surprisingly often anticlimactic in stories; it typically reduces a source of tension. There are plenty of times where death is thematically appropriate, but where it isn't, yeah I'll fudge a bit if I don't have to ruin player agency to do so. This is a pretty clear expectation at our table though.

I would argue that an assumption along similar lines is whether a table allows non standard actions from their PCs, particularly once combat starts. At many tables combat is restricted to the clearly established rules of the system; at others anything flies. I think there are perfectly legitimate reasons for either, but they're definitely not fit everybody.
 

Creamsteak

Explorer
There's also fudging the dice against the PCs favor or fudging the dice in a non-combat or generally neutral way. The assumption that fudging the dice is pulling punches isn't quite accurate. I'd say one of the most common reasons I've hand-waived anything was when the combat was already resolved and the cost to playing it out (time, players attention and enjoyment) was not going to be worth it.
 

Jhaelen

First Post
The conclusion could just as easily be the opposite (GM ignores dice in favor of his monsters/npcs/etc).
True. I actually recall one or two sessions where our GM admitted afterwards (s)he fudged to make an encounter 'more exciting'.

I'm not a fan of that kind of fudging, either. I believe that players generally enjoy steamrolling their opponents from time to time, especially if tough encounters are the norm. I could see a potential exception for an important milestone encounter, e.g. the climax of a campaign.
In fact some of my players complained that they felt defeating the final villain in my 3e campaign was too easy...
 

Jhaelen

First Post
Sandbox = Good, Linear Plot (Railroad) = Bad.

Sandbox's can sometime lead to "too much" player freedom, such that they don't have a clue what to do. Some players just want to follow a straight forward plot so they can crack some skulls.
That's a good example. I've found that 'sandboxes' don't really work for my usual group of players. When I'm a player I also usually look for rumours or clues to decide what to do next. So, in a pure sandbox, I'm also struggling. I'm not a fan of 'let's go, plunder the countryside/dungeon', just because. I want a reason to do it.
 

Jhaelen

First Post
But even more to the point, generally the realization that you need to flee occurs when the party suddenly finds its either about to take or has taken casualties. PC's take massive damage and someone is now either dead or will likely be on the monster's next action. In most D&D systems, combat only lasts 2-4 rounds on average. If you figure out even as early as round 1 that you are in trouble, it's probably too late to rationally flee. If you abandon the body to the monster, you probably can't raise the character. If you try to disengage, you are giving the monster at least 1 free round of attacks. Ninety percent of the time it is a vastly more rational strategy to risk the 1 round trying to kill the monster over granting the monster 1 free round while you try to disengage. This number can go up to 100% of the time depending on the DM.
Yup, that matches my experience quite well. If only one PC is down, the rest of the party may still be willing to flee, but if several are down or dead, the rest often decide to fight it to the (probably) bitter end out of a sense of loyalty. This somewhat depends on the power-level of the party, though. High-level parties can often regroup and recover quickly by magical means even after a near-total defeat.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
That's a good example. I've found that 'sandboxes' don't really work for my usual group of players. When I'm a player I also usually look for rumours or clues to decide what to do next. So, in a pure sandbox, I'm also struggling. I'm not a fan of 'let's go, plunder the countryside/dungeon', just because. I want a reason to do it.

More broadly - some folks really like "blue sky", do whatever you want, scenarios. Others become more creative when given some structure.

I have found at least one reason for this - some players don't like "blue sky" because they do not know enough about the game world to know what is a possible and reasonable action. A person who is decisive and proactive in the real world is enabled by having context and living 24-7 in this world. Some players don't feel they have the proper context in the fantasy world to be as decisive as they might normally be.

Other players, they either feel they do have context, or they don't really care so much if their idea doesn't quite mesh with game-world reality.
 

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