D&D 5E How many fans want a 5E Warlord?

How many fans want a 5E Warlord?

  • I want a 5E Warlord

    Votes: 139 45.9%
  • Lemmon Curry

    Votes: 169 55.8%

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I like the idea of losing the actions if an ally chooses not to follow them. I like that the group loses the synergy bonuses they get for the presence of a Warlord if hey choose not to listen to them. It's a realistic representation of the benefits provided by leadership, and the results of ignoring that leadership. I purposely wrote those attributes in.
And in so doing you also purposely flat-out made the Warlord/Marshal/Caddy the party boss by building in mechanical disadvantages to not doing what she says! That's awful!

Lan-"this sort of class may or may not ever make it into the game, and that's fine; but I'd refuse to play in a party that had one"-efan
 

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A D&D battle (almost always) has no pre-set script or series of play calls. Some parties try to design standard operating procedures but every situation is different, and if the party insists on sticking to the SOP all the time they're actually putting themselves at an overall disadvantage..

Lan-"thanks for the primer on what all the pass routes are called"-efan

True, that strategy breaks down after contact with the enemy (or so the saying goes), but the warlord, because he's smarter (Int based warlord, for example) still sees the opportunities and holes in the enemy's defenses to best be taken advantage of. He has a better "battlefield-sense" than the other guys, and is capable of affecting the battlefield that way, not just with the swing of a sword.

To use another sports analogy, having a good point guard isn't only about running the XO plan as originally drawn up (though it includes that); it's also about getting your guy in the best position to score even when the defense has adjusted to the drawn up play.

Edit: [MENTION=6801209]mellored[/MENTION] beat me to it with an actual drawn diagram to boot!
 

If Pathfinder has a Warlord class and 3.X had a Warlord(i.e. Marshall) class and 13th Age has a Warlord class and 4e has a Warlord class, then why is it suddenly not a present enough archetype in fantasy to warrant it's own class when it comes to 5e?
 

Disagree... the only at-wills are cantrips, so unless you are proposing his maneuvers be no more powerful than cantrips at-will is overpowered It has nothing to do with his power being a fighter (what fighter special abilities are at-will?).
Do you think a maneuver is the same power level as a spell?
Also, wizards and warlocks do get at-will spells.


Maybe warlock might be a better example for you to understand.

Warloocrd needs...

Martial Invocations.
2/short rest party wide buffs. (or 1/battle, like +Wis to initiative, and move 5' when rolling initiative).
 

Saying that the Battlemaster 'is' or fulfills the need for a Warlord is like saying the Wizard can be excised from the game because the Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster fills the bill. Well, if the EK and AT only ever got 1st level spells.
I was not saying that warlords should not be in the game. I spent a good portion of my post praising and describing a 5th edition take on the warlord so I'm not sure where you got the impression that I think the warlord should not exist. As you point out, there is room in the game for Eldritch Knight and the Wizard and so therefore I agree there is room for the Battlemaster as well as a Warlord class.


Doesn't Pathfinder already have a nominal 'Warlord?'
Pathfinder has many ways of doing many different things. But yes, there are a few ways to do certain parts of the warlord archetype.
 

And in so doing you also purposely flat-out made the Warlord/Marshal/Caddy the party boss by building in mechanical disadvantages to not doing what she says! That's awful!

How is not providing an advantage the same as building in a mechanical disadvantage?

If the group ignores the Warlord, thereby losing the advantage gained by a Warlord, both the group and the Warlord simply continue on as they did before, with the exception of the Warlord acting for themself - as just another character - and no longer providing a bonus to the group. Everybody can still do what they normally do before the Warlord entered the mix.

Where's the mechanical disadvantage? Nobody is penalized, they just aren't rewarded. It's going back to neutral, not to a disadvantage...


Lan-"this sort of class may or may not ever make it into the game, and that's fine; but I'd refuse to play in a party that had one"-efan

That's Cool.
 
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That spells it out perfectly: if all the abilities were exactly the same mechanically, how many Warlord fans would still want to play if it were fluffed as a Henchman to the other characters? Not many?
'Facilitator' or 'Faithful Retainer' doesn't sound as cool as Warlord, and it's only one small oddball slice of what you could do with the class, but some of the 'lazy' builds strayed into that kind of territory, and were particularly fun. The 'Princess build' Garthanos came up with, who wasn't a warrior in it's own right and didn't command, just invited rescue and showing off, for instance. Like the 'victim' in a horror movie whom the heroes always trying to save.

Besides, anyone who's been playing martial archetypes in D&D for a while is pretty accustomed to being the 'Caddy' in Casters & Caddies, anyway. ;P

And in so doing you also purposely flat-out made the Warlord/Marshal/Caddy the party boss by building in mechanical disadvantages to not doing what she says! That's awful!
Outside of action grants, the 'doing what he said' bit was fluff - "Shroedenger's Command" as someone put it up thread. Warlord uses Lead the Attack, everyone gets a bonus for 'following his lead,' and attacking the same target however they want.

Lan-"this sort of class may or may not ever make it into the game, and that's fine; but I'd refuse to play in a party that had one"-efan
You'd be missing out, but such is absolutely your right.

Would you tell a wizard who cast haste on you to stop messing with your time?
Well, in past editions it did age you. So quite possibly.
Would you tell a cleric that you don't want the blessing of his god?
If you were of an opposed religion or aggressively atheist, perhaps.
Would you tell the bard you don't appreciate his inspiration?
If he was like Elan from OotS?

The "boss of me" issue, isn't a warlord issue.
There's always an opportunity for tension within the party if the players want to RP it.
It's a choice.

Yeah, it's a hole in heroic archetypes: the guy who is not as strong or swift as the warriors in his group but knows how best to deploy them and has great in-the-heat-of-the-moment-tactics. It would be great if there was a mechanically attractive reason to play a smart character (or wise, or charismatic) beyond spells.
The Warlord builds did eventually encompass all three mental stats, though the Insightful build never struck me as all that great.

But then, this is a very magic heavy edition.
Remarkably so. "Fighter's cast spells" was a misrepresentation of 4e, it's true of EKs in 5e. Every class has at least one sub-class that actively uses magic, the vast majority of them casters. Only 5 of 38 sub-classes don't use magic, and they're all dedicated DPR builds.

The Warlord is desperately needed just to bring some variety to that side of the game. The design space left open for non-casters doing things other than DPR is just vast.

As a quick aside. I wonder if a fitting Rogue subclass would be the good base class for a Warlord.
Also still a dedicated high-DPR class, and fails for the lead-from-the-front concepts. The Warlord, even just one as broad as the 4e Warlord, requires a full class. It's too different from the few existing non-casters, and 5e has left so much open in the martial arena that the Warlord could take up, it would just be folly to try to squeeze it into a sub-class or series of sub-classes.



Only the Battlemaster can support his allies... :confused:
Currently, if you're interested in making contributions other than DPR or expertise-based-skill-monkey, you must use magic. The Battlemaster can do a little support, but it's strictly inferior to the Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, and even apparently-misbegotten Ranger in that regard.

If we were removing the Sorcerer, Warlock, and Wizard from the game permanently, and suggesting that the EK was all you needed, would that sound reasonable? No.

If Pathfinder has a Warlord class and 3.X had a Warlord(i.e. Marshall) class and 13th Age has a Warlord class and 4e has a Warlord class, then why is it suddenly not a present enough archetype in fantasy to warrant it's own class when it comes to 5e?
The 13A Commander is a narrower archetype than the Warlord, and the Marshal was in a spin-off wargame (designed to be compatible with 3.0, but releases around the time of 3.5). But, yeah, obviously.
 
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Do you think a maneuver is the same power level as a spell?
Also, wizards and warlocks do get at-will spells.


Maybe warlock might be a better example for you to understand.

Warloocrd needs...

Martial Invocations.
2/short rest party wide buffs. (or 1/battle, like +Wis to initiative, and move 5' when rolling initiative).

That's not at-will... it's 2 (or 1) per short rest.
 

How is not providing an advantage the same as building in a mechanical disadvantage?

If the group ignores the Warlord, thereby losing the advantage gained by a Warlord, both the group and the Warlord simply continue on as they did before, with the exception of the Warlord acting for themself - as just another character - and no longer providing a bonus to the group. Everybody can still do what they normally do before the Warlord entered the mix.
Well, not quite: if the Warlord/Caddy/Marshal herself thus burns her action instead of doing something else she's not pulling her weight.

A few side notes to pick up on things read in passing here:

"Engineer" was a secondary skill back in 1e; one of my first characters was one (found as the imprisoned guy on the lower level of A2 Slavers' Stockade). Great as a secondary skill. Not at all worth its own entire class.

Non-magic mental-stat classes? Tough one. A spell-less Paladin variant could do for Charisma, I suppose. Can't think of any for Int and Wis at the moment.

Sorcerers - when I saw Sorcerer it was a revelation. All casters in my games now work that way (in other words, it in effect replaced the Wizard outright).

Lan-"that engineer guy, by the way, is still in play today"-efan
 

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