cmad1977
Hero
The dmg guidelines are for 4 PCs I think. So... Yeah of course they stomped it
D&D 5E DMG's definition of "Deadly" is much less deadly than mine: Data Aggregation?
The dmg guidelines are for 4 PCs I think. So... Yeah of course they stomped it
Tia Nadiezja
First Post
Yeah. If a group of low-tier monsters are all clumped together, you might as well remove their XP from the encounter and instead figure out what the XP value of Fireball is, because that's all it's going to take to get rid of them. If they're spread out throughout a decent-sized encounter area, though, they'll be able to keep peppering the PCs with arrows - and, since ACs basically cap at 21 before magic, they'll be able to get in at least a few hits even on high-level teams.
Uller
Adventurer
Wow. You're right. Hadn't noticed the change. Definitely an improvement. Still it's only ballpark and still seems to work best with 3-4 PCs and a similar number of monsters and the 6-8 encounters per day model. Any change in any of those variables rapidly breaks down.
In our last game a party of 5 7th level PCs fought the following encounters with no rest (not even short)
2700 XP - Easy
12,200 XP - Deadly
1950 - Easy
1350 - Easy
6,200 - Hard
The last three were in rapid succession as the denizens of the dungeon rallied to counter attack the PCs after they nearly killed the BBEG in that second fight...he escaped and started sending his troops after the PCs. The only thing that kept the PCs alive was they didn't hole up and wait for a massive assault. They kept moving so the monsters couldn't get organized and an NPC eventually betrayed her cult and helped them.
That's a total of 24,300 XP (adjusted) out of a "budget" of 35,000 XP for that party (EDIT: Correction...that should be 25,000...so it's right in the ball park). The party was pretty well battered, low on spells and other resources (but not out completely). If they could have gotten a short rest they probably could have handled another 10,000 to 15,000 XP but it would definitely have been pushing into a potential TPK. The paladin and the cleric were starting to consider holding off the enemy to let the rest of the party escape.
So the guidelines work pretty well as long as you remember they are just that....guidelines....with WIDE variations depending on tactics, dice rolls and encounter set-up. The description given by the OP doesn't sound like the party "stomped" the three carrion crawlers. It sounds like a bad die roll or bad tactics early on could have changed things dramatically. As it was the party was left without much left to go on which is what I would expect that encounter to do.
One reason things were tough for my party is the monsters in that deadly encounter ALL got to go first, they dropped the cleric with a crit before he could even act so that left the party scrambling to get him a healing potion to get back in the fight. Had the PCs managed to get the drop on the monsters, it likely would not have been much of a challenge (a well rested 7th level party has A LOT of firepower...fireballs, stunning strikes, smites and polymorphs...they can cut through a hard or deadly encounter like butter)
THEN in the next fight there were 3 CR 1/4 monsters...Two went down quickly. One was dropped to 1 HP but could not flee...he scored a crit on the paladin. CR 1/4 monsters against a 7th level party are not trivial...someone has to spend an action or two to get rid of them and if you don't, they just might score a hit that does some noticeable damage...(in this case it was about 12...not a lot...but enough to leave a mark)
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Rhenny
Adventurer
Another thing I'm noting is that sometimes, the difference between deadly/tpk and not that challenging hinges on a number of variables including strategy, use of terrain, and sometimes most importantly luck!
So many times in the games I've DMd or played a party can get through some encounters without a hitch, but if the foes start to crit, or the players roll poorly, those same encounters could spell disaster.
With 5e, I think most of the "fear" comes from "potential" damage rather than "actual" damage. As long as the group, at least once, feels the sting of focused fire, or surprise attacks, or pack tactics, a massive giant club smashing one PC to pulp, a deadly trap blasting one or more of them, an enemy spellcaster doing some nasty area of effect or control spell, the fear is there so to me the challenge rating of any given encounter is less important.
So many times in the games I've DMd or played a party can get through some encounters without a hitch, but if the foes start to crit, or the players roll poorly, those same encounters could spell disaster.
With 5e, I think most of the "fear" comes from "potential" damage rather than "actual" damage. As long as the group, at least once, feels the sting of focused fire, or surprise attacks, or pack tactics, a massive giant club smashing one PC to pulp, a deadly trap blasting one or more of them, an enemy spellcaster doing some nasty area of effect or control spell, the fear is there so to me the challenge rating of any given encounter is less important.
FormerlyHemlock
Hero
I'm sometimes surprised that Pass Without Trace doesn't get talked about more. Even if you don't think you can get a surprise round on the bad guys every time, the simple reduction in the number of times you get surprised by them is worth a lot. Similarly, I can't stand to build a professional soldier PC who doesn't have Stealth and Perception. There's a reason why real-world soldiers wear camouflage instead of brightly-colored uniforms.
Encounters at my table are sometimes contests to see who will fail a Stealth roll first and get ganked without warning. (Or nobody fails one and both sides just never notice each other.) Other times, most of the party hides while one guy plays the stalking horse to flush out opposition. (Yay for Disguise Self! And I should use Major Illusion VI more actually.)
I sometimes think Pass Without Trace might be the single most powerful low-level spell in the game.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Not adjusted XP total, just total XP earned (the daily XP totals don't care about adjusted XP).
So one carrion crawler is 450 XP. The XP that a party of 6 2nd-level characters is expected to earn is 3,600. That means EIGHT carrion crawlers. That's an adjusted encounter XP of Nine Thousand, which also makes it worth about one deadly level 17 encounter.
Luck or tactics or terrain or whatnot could still have a significant effect, but what that does is limit the nova potential. There's 8 carrion crawlers, and even if you throw every daily spell and ability at the wall, it won't clear them all.
The challenge here is no joke - without a way to recover HP outside of spells and no way to recover short rest abilities, a party that relies on those things isn't likely to make it unless you do something like have the crawlers arrive in waves or introduce some feature that lets them recharge in the middle of the fight (potions of healing, sure, but also maybe a potion of rest that lets you spend some HD and get your per-rest abilities back). It can push your party to optimize and avoid combats like this in the future, because each one has a very real chance of killing....everyone. If this is "random wilderness encounter" stuff, you might consider doing a random roll for quantity with 8 as the max (2d4 or something), to keep some variety in there.
Terrain and tactics and the like can still sway this - a party who conga lines eight carrion crawlers in front of a door is going to have an easier time of it, forex. You may even want to consider giving the party some terrain advantage or something else they can do to mitigate the threat. It might also encourage you to play the carrion crawlers as a little less fight-to-the-death-y - if they retreat at half HP, the party is still facing lots of rounds of tentacle slappage.
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FormerlyHemlock
Hero
The counterplay of course is for PCs to hunker down behind cover at +5 to AC and pick the hobgoblins off using Sharpshooter/Spell Sniper, which the hobgoblins don't have. (Which is why any party I build always has at least one Sharpshooter or Spell Sniper in it by level 5 or so.)
Any encounter where the PCs have to engage in counterplay is a good, fun encounter IMO. The boring ones are where the straightforward approach just works.
FormerlyHemlock
Hero
Yes, in fact they do. Quoting from the Basic Rules (which are the same as the DMG but easier to copy/paste):
Basic0.3_page57 said:
It then gives the daily XP table. That table is for adjusted XP, not raw XP. Poor writing on their part to refer to it as "XP", they should have called it "Difficulty value" or something to avoid confusion.
Rhenny
Adventurer
Oh yeah. Definitely a great spell. I also like it because it fits with an interesting philosophy...it is actually really fun when PCs can do things well. Too much of the time, a DM (I even include myself in this) will try too hard to thwart what the PCs plan, when party success would actually keep the game/story flowing and make it fun for the players.
Imagine the foes using Pass Without a Trace too. That would really crank up the difficulty. Surprise is so nasty.
Tia Nadiezja
First Post
Plus, even then, the sharpshooter is only picking off at most a number of hobgoblins equal to their attacks/round. That gives them a fair bit more time to make the front line PCs' and the big flashy wizard's lives difficult.
