D&D 5E Char Ops forums: Something I wish hadn't come over.

[Greg K]

I dig the calls for "everybody deserves to have a good time" in defense of min-maxers. I really do. But it's simply not practical. For one thing, why should any player be more entitled to an enjoyable game than any other? Especially if their behavior is disruptive? Is that fair to ask of the other players? People like to say "everyone should have a good time." However, practically speaking, that's incredibly rare even at the best of times. It's damn near impossible in the face of disruptive player behavior. While I hate to stamp on anyone's good time, as a DM it's incumbent on me to assure that, at my table, as many people as possible have a good time. That goes for the deliberate gimpers as well as the munchkins.

There's the main difference in opinion - "everybody deserves to have a good time" is an excellent goal at which to aim. We need to be content with "as many people as possible have a good time." The trick is to find that happy medium, accommodating as many play-styles as possible. I find that discussions of expectations before the first die is rolled to be the best method of avoiding disputes.

I agree "everybody deserves to have a good time". However, I have always said that it does not mean every player deserves to have their preferred style/wants accommodated at a given table. Styles are not always compatible and, therefore, "deserves to have a good time" sometimes requires a player (or players) having to go find another group or starting a group that caters to their preferences.

 

[The Yellow Pill]

I'm a newb who is probably repeating stuff both from this forum and this very thread, so forgive me if that's the case...

This is a product of "gamist" philosophy, the idea of RPGs as ultimately about competitive strategy. It's a culture that has no doubt been strengthened by the popularity of CCGs and MOBAs.

And it's okay. Really. It's fine.

I have absolutely no interest in playing that way and in fact it flies in the face of everything I love about tabletop. But it's no less legitimate than my way and, in fact, is closer to the original D&D than the storytelling philosophy that is predominant today.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[The Grassy Gnoll]

Perhaps a separate "5e CharOps" forum being set up would give fans of optimising a 5e-specific home to put their stuff in without filling up the main "5e forum" with CharOps build threads?

 

[Ghost Matter]

If people hadn't done it in that section, it would've been elsewhere. Either in the general 5e forums or reddit/r/3d6. It might seem like encouraging that type for play but it's for the best: the general forums won't be flooded and EN World gets to keep more users.

 

[Morrus]

Perhaps a separate "5e CharOps" forum being set up would give fans of optimising a 5e-specific home to put their stuff in without filling up the main "5e forum" with CharOps build threads?

We've had a Char Ops forum for ages. Check the Meta forum for details about the recent experiment whereby Char Ops threads are being allowed temporarily to show up in the main 5E forum.

 

[steeldragons]

Perhaps a separate "5e CharOps" forum being set up would give fans of optimising a 5e-specific home to put their stuff in without filling up the main "5e forum" with CharOps build threads?

Yeah, that's how it worked/was up until, literally, last week.

The Meta forum has the basis for this change. We can all thank that thread, and the ill-timing of the added confusion from the WotC forum-closure/mass exodus, for the current situation.

Ah. Ninja'd, I see, by Morrus.

 

[The Human Target]

Wasn't an OD&D magic user who chose to prepare sleep over light an optimizer?

 

[Kabouter Games]

But I still think that the largest explosion came with 3e/3.5e[.]

I agree. I encountered mix/max players when my 1E books were still crackly and new. But when under the RAW one could actually "build" characters - abilities, skills, feats, all of that - people really started to crunch and grind to get the exact character they wanted.

That, not entirely coincidentally, was when I stopped buying new books and kept rolling along with 1E/2E. I found the skills & powers chargen process too complicated and untrue to the game I knew. So I stopped playing it. I'm ashamed to say I aired those grievances loudly on BBS and Usenet fora. I was younger then and less wise. (Not that I'm Elrond now, but at least I'm not the jerk I was then.)

I agree "everybody deserves to have a good time". However, I have always said that it does not mean every player deserves to have their preferred style/wants accommodated at a given table. Styles are not always compatible and, therefore, "deserves to have a good time" sometimes requires a player (or players) having to go find another group or starting a group that caters to their preferences.

THIS.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I agree. I encountered mix/max players when my 1E books were still crackly and new. But when under the RAW one could actually "build" characters - abilities, skills, feats, all of that - people really started to crunch and grind to get the exact character they wanted.

That, not entirely coincidentally, was when I stopped buying new books and kept rolling along with 1E/2E. I found the skills & powers chargen process too complicated and untrue to the game I knew. So I stopped playing it. I'm ashamed to say I aired those grievances loudly on BBS and Usenet fora. I was younger then and less wise. (Not that I'm Elrond now, but at least I'm not the jerk I was then.)

I had the exact same reaction, and that is also the point at which I stopped buying AD&D books and took up other pursuits.

I don't mind 5E chargen as much because at least it was advertised up front as part of the game, and it is a different game--but there's definitely a part of me that wishes that "real" multiclassing were a supported alternative to 3E-style by-level multiclassing, and that wishes that "feats" were hardwired at 1st level as a virtual subclass instead of being a dynamic decision made during play. ("Yeah, I'm Lucky now because I killed enough orcs." What?)