D&D 5E Do you think we will get an Oriental Adventures setting for 5th edition?

[aramis erak]

Or, y'know, you can just be a decent person and consider their feelings rather than use words that'll insult them. Asking for a better name than "Oriental Adventures" isn't going too far

As to it, I would reboot the entire area. Word-crushing events are a dime a dozen in FR, get rid of the old areas and actually come up with some interesting ones that aren't just "Real life poxy with serial numbers filed off". I would keep Spelljammer not-China but, y'know, work on it to be something other than Spelljammer not-China.

But do the oriental peoples find it offensive? I've not heard complaints about it from anyone except urban white folk and a few wealthy black folk.

Or are you saying the Filipinos, Samoans, Japanese and Vietnamese families running "oriental groceries" in Anchorage object to the term "Oriental" and have been coerced to use it? I know one Filipina who violently objects to "Asian" despite being of chinese ancestry... because of ties to the "East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere," but accepts "oriental," "Filipina", or "Chinese." (The EACPS was the pacific domination by the Japanese in WW2, in case you are unfamiliar with the term.)

And cultural appropriation? SO BLOODY WHAT? Sure, things get it wrong... but Hollyweird gets even the US wrong more often than not, and it's in California... Entertainment of all forms is likely to get things wrong. True Tolerance does not take offense, but uses it instead as an opportunity to correct and educate.

(Scary thing - the MacOS spellchecker dictionary had Hollyweird in it... but not Filipina, the feminine form of Filipino.)

 

[Mecheon]

But do the oriental peoples find it offensive? I've not heard complaints about it from anyone except urban white folk and a few wealthy black folk.

Or are you saying the Filipinos, Samoans, Japanese and Vietnamese families running "oriental groceries" in Anchorage object to the term "Oriental" and have been coerced to use it? I know one Filipina who violently objects to "Asian" despite being of chinese ancestry... because of ties to the "East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere," but accepts "oriental," "Filipina", or "Chinese." (The EACPS was the pacific domination by the Japanese in WW2, in case you are unfamiliar with the term.)

And cultural appropriation? SO BLOODY WHAT? Sure, things get it wrong... but Hollyweird gets even the US wrong more often than not, and it's in California... Entertainment of all forms is likely to get things wrong. True Tolerance does not take offense, but uses it instead as an opportunity to correct and educate.

(Scary thing - the MacOS spellchecker dictionary had Hollyweird in it... but not Filipina, the feminine form of Filipino.)

I come at this from a Transformers fan background. Now, those of you who know this story already know what's coming out, but to those who don't, there's a Transformer! One of the Dinobots! His name is Slag, a really angry guy who's name is also a Transformers swear word. If you're in the UK, you already know why that's a problem, because since the 80s that's become slang for "prostitute". So when Slag got an update and appeared in the comics, they mentioned he changed his name to Slug, as in the action of slugging someone in the face, or a bullet slug. It still work for the character

Half of the fandom went berserk at this because how dare they change something from the original series.

Quite familler with the EACPS myself, and can see where that wouldn't work so well. And in terms of the whole thing? Honestly I use Oriental all the time. Its a flavour of those cheap ol' instant noodles around here, even. But if someone's had offence, whatever, shrug, slap on another name, and go from there. The content's the important bit on this, not the name

 

[delericho]

I come at this from a Transformers fan background. Now, those of you who know this story already know what's coming out, but to those who don't, there's a Transformer! One of the Dinobots! His name is Slag, a really angry guy who's name is also a Transformers swear word. If you're in the UK, you already know why that's a problem, because since the 80s that's become slang for "prostitute".

Which is rather unfortunate, since he was actually named after the stony waste that's a by-product of smelting or refining ore. Something I can confirm was easy enough for a ten year old to understand - since I was one at the time.

 

[GreenTengu]

But do the oriental peoples find it offensive? I've not heard complaints about it from anyone except urban white folk and a few wealthy black folk.

Or are you saying the Filipinos, Samoans, Japanese and Vietnamese families running "oriental groceries" in Anchorage object to the term "Oriental" and have been coerced to use it? I know one Filipina who violently objects to "Asian" despite being of chinese ancestry... because of ties to the "East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere," but accepts "oriental," "Filipina", or "Chinese." (The EACPS was the pacific domination by the Japanese in WW2, in case you are unfamiliar with the term.)

The point I am ultimately trying to make is that instead of presenting it at foreign or alien, treat the cultural elements from other countries as though they are normal. Don't crank the feudalism, lack of humanity, a devaluing of human life or social restrictions up to 11 when you dropped it to 1 for your normal setting. Don't try to lift the country up wholesale, just borrow a few elements here and there and treat them like normal.

Don't make the peoples of the world goofier or more gimmicky than you made the peoples of the other world. Don't make it so that they all universally use the same super weapon or have resolving things through personal violence be the social norm.

But using the words "Oriental" or "Asian" don't present that. You don't call Faerun "Occidental Adventures", you don't call it "Adventures in Asia!" In fact, you present it as though it is Forgotten Realms in its entirety.

So Forgotten Realms: Kara-tur should be treated just like Forgotten Realms: The Sword Coast-- only with more diversity.

Over on that continent people have buildings, clothing and food from real world Japan, China, Korea, Vietnam, etc. Over there instead of Dwarfs, Elves, Gnomes, Goblins, etc., there are Vanara, Rakasha, Naga, Tengu/Garuda, Kitsune/Kumiho, Oni, Dokkaebi, Kui, Xiao, etc.

 

[aramis erak]

The point I am ultimately trying to make is that instead of presenting it at foreign or alien, treat the cultural elements from other countries as though they are normal. Don't crank the feudalism, lack of humanity, a devaluing of human life or social restrictions up to 11 when you dropped it to 1 for your normal setting. Don't try to lift the country up wholesale, just borrow a few elements here and there and treat them like normal.

That, I can see — kind of.

But using the words "Oriental" or "Asian" don't present that. You don't call Faerun "Occidental Adventures", you don't call it "Adventures in Asia!" In fact, you present it as though it is Forgotten Realms in its entirety.

And there, you've just cut off a large share of the market. Haven't you noticed the grumbling about how it's all FR these days?

I know that I am far less likely to buy or run Kara-Tur than I am to run a generic Oriental Adventures.
(I'd definitely buy a D&D5 Rokugan. I'm likely to buy a generic OA, and unlikely to buy for myself anything specific to Kara-Tur. Most of the people I know would rather see something other than "more FR" - most, as in about 60%... tho the largest single demographic is definitely FR-friendly, well over Greyhawk, Mystara, or "Truly generic"...).

Remember - to those who don't know it already, "Kara-Tur" is meaningless and totally non-descriptive. And that means either really old Greayhawk fans or more general FR fans.

 

[Azzy]

I remember one designer positing the argument that it is better to base your settings as close to real settings as possible because it is easier for your players to identify with real things and therefore get a better experience.

I guess that doesn't apply to occidental settings—as there's no 1-to-1 equivalents of England, France, Germany, Italy, Russia, etc. in the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk. or Dragonlance.

No, it's just lazy design.

 

[SkidAce]

My players agree that a shortcut phrase "The hobgoblin culture is similar in appearance to ancient Rome" helps them visualize, and gives them some shared basic assumptions.

Of course, in play, the differences and nuances of the culture become apparent.

I wouldn't necessarily call it lazy design, no more than Firefly the series used cowboy/western culture as a way to flavor its background.

 

[Shasarak]

I guess that doesn't apply to occidental settings—as there's no 1-to-1 equivalents of England, France, Germany, Italy, Russia, etc. in the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk. or Dragonlance.

No, it's just lazy design.

You can not throw a stick in Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms without hitting something ripped off from somewhere.

Why would you have an Oriental Adventures supplement if you were not going to base it on the Orient?

 

[Azzy]

You can not throw a stick in Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms without hitting something ripped off from somewhere.

So which nation or nations in those settings is a direct 1-to-1 Middle Ages England (pre- or post- Norman invasion) analogues? France? Spain? Russia? Other Slavic states? Italy? Germany? Etc.?

Why would you have an Oriental Adventures supplement if you were not going to base it on the Orient?

Who says you wouldn't? I would just expect it to be as closely analogous to historical Asian states as the Occidental lands of Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, etc. are analogous to historical European and Middle Eastern states. That is, only in the most broad sense, with elements drawn from various different historical nations (from various different historical points) with fictional and fantastical elements thrown in so that it's not just, say, Merovingian France with the serial numbers filed off or, say, Sengoku Japan with its serial numbers filed off. Y'know, something that's a little more imaginative and creative.

 

[MechaPilot]

Who says you wouldn't? I would just expect it to be as closely analogous to historical Asian states as the Occidental lands of Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, etc. are analogous to historical European and Middle Eastern states. That is, only in the most broad sense, with elements drawn from various different historical nations (from various different historical points) with fictional and fantastical elements thrown in so that it's not just, say, Merovingian France with the serial numbers filed off or, say, Sengoku Japan with its serial numbers filed off. Y'know, something that's a little more imaginative and creative.

So, a mishmash of SE Asian cultures and architecture?

Just for example, one with the castes and deities of India, the Chinese Shaolin-type monasteries, the various yokai of Japan, the veneration of ancestral spirits, and perhaps a nation with a wall to hold off a tribe of mounted barbarians?