D&D 5E Is stoneskin underpowered?

[Uller]

I think there is something fundamentally different in the way that you and I think about NPCs, because I basically treat them as a one-time use challenge morsel that is built to fail,

As do I. The reason I brought this up is in the published adventure I am running there are several casters that have this spell prepared. It is an important part of the flavor of the adventure but since this spell does literally nothing against my party (since all 4 PCs either have a magic weapon or are casters....please dont try to tell me that isnt typical for an 8th level party when all their magic items have come straight from the book) so I have been having to find other interesting spells that can contribute to the flavor of the adventure.

This is likely just difference in our personal experiences, but you have labelled the most common types of damage (nonmagical bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing) as being a "very narrow range."

As I mentioned...one side in my game (the PCs) almost never does this sort of damage. It's a 4th level spell that has a high cost to cast. As levels get higher, nonmagical damage becomes less and less common.

Yet you bring up a "pretty much identical spell" that is lower level and doesn't have a costly component as though the two are equal. They aren't. Protection from energy applies against far less common damage...

Which you can choose...how hard can it be to predict that you will take fire damage if you are about to go fight the fire cult in PotA? You are right...they are not equal. PfE is lower level and has no cost and as you go up in levels it becomes more useful because more and more creatures are doing damage that it can affect.

Immunity is a bad idea because it makes certain character types unable to contribute and misses the entire point of why concentration can be broken through damage in the first place.

Every character can contribute. Do some damage, you've contributed. That's the point of the cap. A typical party of even 5th level PCs can easily do 40 damage in a single round. A 4th level spell to avoid damage for one round sounds like a cool spell...cool enough to warrant that 100gp cost.

Resistance to all damage? Well, sure... if you want stoneskin to be hands-down the best buff spell on the books, that's the way to do it

I'm just replacing the type with a cap to make the spell more broadly useful but setting the cap low enough that it can be easily overcome (and the cap is certainly adjustable...5hp/slot level?) As is resistance or immunity. A typical character (PC or NPC) in our game can do at least half the cap in damage without breaking a sweat. Please explain why negating damage from one or two characters' attacks (at a cost of 100 gp) makes it hands down the best buff spell evah.

Oh...and it's still a concentration spell...so if it is cast on an ally concentration cam still be broken. It would make it the one concentration buff spell that is better to cast on yourself than an ally. Again...justifying that 100 gp cost.

 

[Uller]

I have a villainous ranger enemy in my campaign who with his dog tanked a lot of damage (after stealing the fighter and paladin's magic weapons).

That is a great use of the spell. Probably really great for a PC. But for your NPC you had to steal the PCs magic weapons to make it work. When they finally defeat him will they find several hundred gp worth of diamond dust on him or will he have just happened to have used his last bit? (Maybe he sold their magic weapons to get more diamond dust?)

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

As levels get higher, nonmagical damage becomes less and less common.

In some campaigns, yes, but not all.

Not every spell is meant to have equal applicability regardless of the actual campaign at hand. In fact, most are obviously meant not to since spells aren't all written with different effects depending on which "pillars" of gameplay are being focused on (i.e. fireball is for combat, might be useful for exploration, and isn't going to help interaction much, and something like charm person is not a great combat choice, doesn't do much for exploration, but is very helpful for interaction, and so on).

Which you can choose...how hard can it be to predict that you will take fire damage if you are about to go fight the fire cult in PotA? You are right...they are not equal. PfE is lower level and has no cost and as you go up in levels it becomes more useful because more and more creatures are doing damage that it can affect.

Every character can contribute. Do some damage, you've contributed. That's the point of the cap. A typical party of even 5th level PCs can easily do 40 damage in a single round. A 4th level spell to avoid damage for one round sounds like a cool spell...cool enough to warrant that 100gp cost.


I'm just replacing the type with a cap to make the spell more broadly useful but setting the cap low enough that it can be easily overcome (and the cap is certainly adjustable...5hp/slot level?) As is resistance or immunity. A typical character (PC or NPC) in our game can do at least half the cap in damage without breaking a sweat. Please explain why negating damage from one or two characters' attacks (at a cost of 100 gp) makes it hands down the best buff spell evah.

Oh...and it's still a concentration spell...so if it is cast on an ally concentration cam still be broken. It would make it the one concentration buff spell that is better to cast on yourself than an ally. Again...justifying that 100 gp cost.[/QUOTE]

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I have a villainous ranger enemy in my campaign who with his dog tanked a lot of damage (after stealing the fighter and paladin's magic weapons).

please please please tell me the command that started that all off was "Fetch!"

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

This argument seems more useful to me. But here is where it rubs me the wrong way with this spell (not with concentration...not with the spell potentially being disrupted...but the overall cost of the spell compared to it's underwhelming impact):

My party of four 8th level PCs would not even notice it. A 4th level concentration spell that costs 100gp to cast and not a single one of them would have to do anything differently to get around it. The Paladin has a +1 longsword, the monk....is a monk so MAGIC!...and she has a +1 mace, the wizard and warlock would never do nonmagical damage.

I don't think my party is atypical. All their magic items come straight from the book and it doesn't seem unreasonable.

The only time they might notice is when the monk is a t-rex. So yeah...I guess there is that one small niche...to me, as spell level gets higher niches should get larger. No?

Huh. That is more magic than I have in my party (my paladin doesn't have a magic weapon, although there is a monk and a couple of multiclass warlocks, plus a bunch of skeleton archers and occasional conjured animals) and somewhat more magic weapons than are likely when rolling several hordes on the DMG tables. The sandbox DM in me says, "Use Stoneskin anyway, so they benefit from their choices," but if they literally might not even notice it, you would need to come up with some way to telegraph (maybe with visual effects when the bad guy is hit?) that Stoneskin is there but they are overcoming it with their awesomeness.

I don't think it's inherently a bad spell, but it is a poor spell to use against highly-magical PCs, and your party is definitely highly-magical due to both items and intrinsic build. Your PCs would slaughter werewolves, again without even noticing the silver immunities, and they're probably built that way deliberately, so it's not Stoneskin's fault that it doesn't help--it's just the PCs thinking ahead. That doesn't make it a bad spell, any more than Shatter is a bad spell. It just makes it a bad spell to use against these particular PCs, which again, good on them! A good spell against these PCs would be Wall of Force so you can take them down individually. (Also wear a Fire Shield while you're doing so.)

So, Blue Slaad and Evoker 7 plus three constrictor snakes, while three of the four PCs are encased helplessly in a Wall of Force. If the plan fails because the PCs have more Counterspells available than the bad guys do, again, good on them! It was still a dangerous situation, they just prepared well enough that they won anyway.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

As do I. The reason I brought this up is in the published adventure I am running there are several casters that have this spell prepared. It is an important part of the flavor of the adventure but since this spell does literally nothing against my party (since all 4 PCs either have a magic weapon or are casters....please dont try to tell me that isnt typical for an 8th level party when all their magic items have come straight from the book) so I have been having to find other interesting spells that can contribute to the flavor of the adventure.

But, which book? WotC adventure paths are notably more generous than DMG tables.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

That is a great use of the spell. Probably really great for a PC. But for your NPC you had to steal the PCs magic weapons to make it work. When they finally defeat him will they find several hundred gp worth of diamond dust on him or will he have just happened to have used his last bit? (Maybe he sold their magic weapons to get more diamond dust?)

This reminds me: if there are two bad guys operating together, or a bad guy wizard and a magma mephit or two, you could combine Stoneskin with Heat Metal in order to get rid of magic items. That wouldn't do anything about the wizard and warlock of course.

 

[Savage Wombat]

On this note, has anyone done a guide, or even had an extended discussion, on what spells are particularly effective in the hands of NPC opponents? I'd be interested in reading that.

 

[cmad1977]

It's fine.

 

[Uller]

This reminds me: if there are two bad guys operating together, or a bad guy wizard and a magma mephit or two, you could combine Stoneskin with Heat Metal in order to get rid of magic items. That wouldn't do anything about the wizard and warlock of course.

Yeah...I know. But I'm not really looking for particularly effective combos against my party...at least not at this stage. Once they kill a prophet in PotA then probably and this might be a good option. Eventually they'll have to deal with the fire cult...

For the record I think the spell is probably fine as is for PCs. Just last session our monk got bit buy a bulette for about 35 damage. I'm sure she would appreciate taking only half damage and might be inclined to not use her bonus action to dodge or shadow step away but instead might take the hit...so yeah, I can see uses for it. I'm still very dubious that it is worth the 100gp cost though. And I do think the game is missing something by making defensive buffs better to be cast on allies. Our wizard literally hides around the corner during fights if he has a buff going on the paladin or monk...then the the earth elemental comes through the wall and he craps himself....

For NPCs it really doesn't seem all that useful. Nonmagic resistance is just too easy for a party to get around even without magic items. A second level spell (magic weapon) trumps it.

It's fine.

Well articulated.