D&D 5E How many fans want a 5E Warlord?

[Remathilis]

I'd still rather have a weak buff each round then a strong buff every once in a while.

Then really lower your expectations.

If a power is each round, we have to assume that it will be "always on" in terms of balance. That is, the party can rely on it every round, since there is no resource being spent to create it.

This leads me back to the Marshal. They had two auras (one minor, one major) that was always active. The minor gave either situations bonuses (bonus to damage when charging) or effected one particular area (reflex save, intelligence checks), while the major gave a very small scaling bonus to bigger areas (DR, to hit, etc). A marshal projects his aura whenever he is alive and conscious, so effectively they were always on when the marshal was active.

An At-Willlord would have to be balanced like that. He isn't granting the Dash action, he's adding +10 ft to movement. He's not using battle-maneuvers, he's granting advantage to Athletics checks. He isn't healing allies, he's reducing the damage they take by a few points each round. He's not giving allies extra attacks, he's giving them d6 bonus to damage. In essence, he isn't creating an effect more powerful than a cantrip or part of a feat. And he still needs some limit on how many effects he can be producing at once.

Not sure it will appease warlord fans, but if you're happy, I'm happy.

I mean, i can already get bless twice per short rest by going cleric 1/warlock 2.

Balancing a core class against an optional multi-class combo is risky; multi-classing can break the game if you try hard enough (which is why its optional).

 

[Tony Vargas]

Most 5e classes have a mix of at-will, short- and long-rest-recharge mechanics. Warlocks, for instance, are more short-rest, while wizards more long-rest, but they each have at-wills.

No reason to have an "at-will Warlord" or "short-rest Warlord," their abilities should run the gammut from maneuvers that work whenever you initiate them, exhorting heroic effort that the subject won't be able to repeat before a short rest, to tricks that'll never work on the same foe twice, and so forth. Lots of room for all sorts of resource schedules.

Actually, I think at-will Maneuvers (like battlemaster maneuvers, but minus the CS die to damage, and granting a secondary-stat bonus instead, and only 1/round) plus per-ally's-short-rest 'inspiration' mechanics plus per-encounter or not-vs-a-foe-you've-done-it-to-before 'tactics' (or not once the enemy 'figures it out' with an INT save or something), might be an interesting/novel resource mix, which is kinda the '5e way.'
Different class, different mechanics.

 

[mellored]

Then really lower your expectations.

My expectations are not that high, but they arn't that low either.

If a power is each round, we have to assume that it will be "always on" in terms of balance. That is, the party can rely on it every round, since there is no resource being spent to create it.

You also need to factor in the action cost.

Actions are resources. You only get so many in a day.
And your not spending them on doing 3-4 attacks.

An At-Willlord would have to be balanced like that. He isn't granting the Dash action, he's adding +10 ft to movement. He's not using battle-maneuvers, he's granting advantage to Athletics checks. He isn't healing allies, he's reducing the damage they take by a few points each round. He's not giving allies extra attacks, he's giving them d6 bonus to damage. In essence, he isn't creating an effect more powerful than a cantrip or part of a feat. And he still needs some limit on how many effects he can be producing at once.

Those seem fine as passive aura's.

But there should be something to spend your action on too.

Maybe a mix.
1/maneuver die per turn for your action, and 1 passive aura that you can change as your bonus action.

 

[Bluenose]

Frequency.
Magic is limited. You can only do it X-times a day. Mundane is not.

A fighter can swing his sword all day long. Not as damaging as a evoker's big spell, but more frequently.
A rogue can cunning action all day long. Not as powerful as a sorcerer's greater invisibility, but more frequently.
A battlebard should be able to buff all day long. Not as much as big of a bonus, or not as many creatures, but more frequently.

And see, this is part of the problem. All the mundane classes do is something really vague, swing a sword, use cunning action. Where the casters get something really precise with designated effects that don't allow for much to argue about. So any GM who wants to be cautious is going to be very wary about allowing the mundane classes to do exceptional things, but is very unlikely to make the same sort of fuss about the casters Because the Full Iron Door stance or the Thunderclap strike are in the vocabulary of a tiny minority of GMs.

 

[Remathilis]

My expectations are not that high, but they arn't that low either.

You also need to factor in the action cost.
Actions are resources. You only get so many in a day.
And your not spending them on doing 3-4 attacks.
Those seem fine as passive aura's.
But there should be something to spend your action on too.
Maybe a mix.
1/maneuver die per turn for your action, and 1 passive aura that you can change as your bonus action.

You get an action every six seconds. In a day, you get 86,400 actions. Every round, you get one of them. Surely, there is an opportunity cost in determining what action to take, but its not equal to spell slots, power points, ki points, which are far more limited.

A "maneuver die per turn" is effectively at-will. It has to be cantrip-level since it can be spammed like a cantrip. Look at the cantrip list: no healing (since it can be used during non-combats for infinite healing), no extra actions, no bonus much bigger than advantage. You need to limit the amount of dice per day somehow if you want to get better effects.

Now, if you combine a cantrip-like passive aura and like 6-10 "powerful" maneuvers (like granting extra actions or healing) per rest, then you have a good combination. But granting a major buff EVERY ROUND is pretty much broken.

 

[Remathilis]

Actually, I think at-will Maneuvers (like battlemaster maneuvers, but minus the CS die to damage, and granting a secondary-stat bonus instead, and only 1/round) plus per-ally's-short-rest 'inspiration' mechanics plus per-encounter or not-vs-a-foe-you've-done-it-to-before 'tactics' (or not once the enemy 'figures it out' with an INT save or something), might be an interesting/novel resource mix, which is kinda the '5e way.'

There is no such thing in 5e. Your options are at-will, per short rest, or per long rest.

 

[Aenghus]

And see, this is part of the problem. All the mundane classes do is something really vague, swing a sword, use cunning action. Where the casters get something really precise with designated effects that don't allow for much to argue about. So any GM who wants to be cautious is going to be very wary about allowing the mundane classes to do exceptional things, but is very unlikely to make the same sort of fuss about the casters Because the Full Iron Door stance or the Thunderclap strike are in the vocabulary of a tiny minority of GMs.

I agree.

Also I have some minimal familiarity with ancient Irish hero stories, in which all the adventurer heroes were mundane characters with extraordinary abilities, and the closest spellcaster analogues were druids and bards who acted as plot devices in the stories and were clearly NPCs in RPG terms. The idea that magic trumps mundane is relatively modern, and contradicted more recently by Conan stories amongst others.

My fantasy game worlds don't function on science, and high level PCs can do amazing things because they are high level, regardless of particular class or being spellcasters or not. Now, what they can do does vary extensively from PC to PC, and no individual PC can do everything best, or is worst at everything.

Cunning spellcaster players learn to bypass or minimize the limitations placed on them, the 15 minute working day being one technique of many. Some referees see this as smart play and encourage it, others allow it, though there are also those who reimpose the limitations in some way, sometimes with a vengeance.

 

[mellored]

You get an action every six seconds. In a day, you get 86,400 actions.

Do you really think you'll have 86,400 rounds of combat?
Or do you think granting someone advantage to-hit counts when no one is around to hit?

That's like saying you could pack a room full of pixies and cast fireball for 86,400d6 damage.

Sorry, but neither is going to happen, unless the DM is trying to prove a point.

Every round, you get one of them. Surely, there is an opportunity cost in determining what action to take, but its not equal to spell slots, power points, ki points, which are far more limited. A "maneuver die per turn" is effectively at-will. It has to be cantrip-level since it can be spammed like a cantrip.

That's fine. There's plenty of good effects from cantrips.

Thornwhip moves enemies.
Vicious mockery gives disadvantage.
True strike grants advantage.
Blade Ward is 1/2 damage.
Shocking grasp prevents enemy reactions.
Guidiance gives +1d4 to any skill.

Those can easily be the 1/turn maneuver. Along with a few others like trip.

Look at the cantrip list: no healing (since it can be used during non-combats for infinite healing)

I never expected at-will healing, no one has.
Not everything needs to be at-will. Short rest to make someone use a hit die works.

no extra actions

Cunning action does that already. Which is at-will.
Using your action to grant someone else a disengage is reasonable.

And, as i pointed out above. Granting 1 attack (when everyone has 2 attacks, not before) is the same damage level as firebolt.

Now, if you combine a cantrip-like passive aura and like 6-10 "powerful" maneuvers (like granting extra actions or healing) per rest, then you have a good combination. But granting a major buff EVERY ROUND is pretty much broken.

I agree.

Greater invisibility every round would be broken.

 

[Tony Vargas]

You get an action every six seconds. In a day, you get 86,400 actions. Every round, you get one of them. Surely, there is an opportunity cost in determining what action to take, but its not equal to spell slots, power points, ki points, which are far more limited.

Look at the combats/day thread. How many rounds do 5e 'fast combats' tend to take? There may by 86400 rounds in a day, but about 86400 of them aren't spent fighting. Maybe 15-30 of them are... in some of those 1-combat-a-day groups, maybe only 5 or so.

Now, if you combine a cantrip-like passive aura and like 6-10 "powerful" maneuvers (like granting extra actions or healing) per rest, then you have a good combination. But granting a major buff EVERY ROUND is pretty much broken.

A passive aura wouldn't be 'cantrip-like,' obviously, since they're actions, but there are few passive abilities in the game, IIRC.

Actually, I think at-will Maneuvers plus per-ally's-short-rest 'inspiration' mechanics plus per-encounter or not-vs-a-foe-you've-done-it-to-before 'tactics', might be an interesting/novel resource mix, which is kinda the '5e way.'
Different class, different mechanics.

There is no such thing in 5e. Your options are at-will, per short rest, or per long rest.

Just in case you're serious: 5e is not tied to doing things only one (mechanical) way, any new class might bring with it novel mechanics. Sure, there are two kinds of (defined) rests (well, and the d4 hours it takes for a stabilized character to wake up at 1hp on his own), but those needn't be the only things that limit whether a given ability is available.

Rest-recharges make sense for something that's taxing to you. A cunning tactic or 'surprise maneuver' may not be particularly taxing, but it also might not work twice on the same target, or even someone who just saw you do it to someone else. 1/encounter captures that in a simple way - even at the horrid price of being a call-back to 4e. A more complex, but potentially more interesting way to model the same thing might be to give each target of such a maneuver an INT save to get wise to it each time after the first it's used against them. Or maybe a trick like that could take disadvantage after the first time you use it in a given encounter.

Of course, other maneuvers might very well be so taxing that you could only use a few of them between rests, or even only between long rests. Even then you might throw in an option to exceed such a limit, but suffer consequences...

 

[mellored]

There is no such thing in 5e. Your options are at-will, per short rest, or per long rest.

thieves break that rule too.
they get a bonus turn when they roll inititive, which is per-encounter.