D&D 5E How many fans want a 5E Warlord?

How many fans want a 5E Warlord?

  • I want a 5E Warlord

    Votes: 139 45.9%
  • Lemmon Curry

    Votes: 169 55.8%

Status
Not open for further replies.
Wait, then spending a hit die in combat is better than spending one out of combat. Why would anyone ever wait for a short rest in that case, when they can get the Warlord's +CHA if they do it in a combat?

(I've been trying to stay out of this discussion, but just can't resist following along at a distance.)

Indeed, why wait? The downside of course is action economy, the warlord can only do so much at a time. To make that bite it might need to be a standard action. Higher level warlords might make it a minor action, that would help scaling.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Scaling would just be 'spend one or more HD.' I suppose you could do CHAmod+level, if you wanted the Warlord's contribution to scale. Spending multiple HD would be less 'efficient' but if you're getting murdered... Or CHA mod per die. You could get fancy and have a limit based on relative level, like 'one or more HD,' but no more than the Warlord has levels, so a 1st level Warlord can't do much to help a 14th level fighter.

That might work, its DICE+CHA, so there's an incentive to spend them in smaller amounts, but you can scale. That might work! I guess it could be 'up to the level of the warlord', though I don't see a lot of times when you have drastically different leveled PCs. OTOH someone probably does...
 

First off, I really don't appreciate that any criticism of 4e is viewed by you as "h4ting." I'll GIVE you reasons to 4venge if you want, but my concerns are in 5e, and now. So knock off the "haters gonna hate" crap, it weakens your argument.

Now, my problem with the warlord is not conceptual. The idea of an intelligence-based warrior has appeal, as does the idea of a leader class of some type. I like the marshal (weak as it was) and allowed it in 3e. Likewise, I liked Pathfinder's cavalier, which borrows some elements of "smart fighter/inspiring leader" as well. On pure basis of that, I hold nothing against the warlord. (I was also an advocate for the "every PHB1 class in 5e" stance, assassin, warlord, and illusionist included).

What I have problems with so far, I haven't seen a warlord suggested that I would allow in game. There are a number of reasons why. The biggest is that for all of 5e's "looser" form of balance, most warlords end up tossing out bonuses that wreck bounded accuracy. Far beyond "grant advantage to attacks", we're talking stuff like "add warlord's Int bonus to hit or Cha bonus to saves" stuff which can easily get crazy when the warlord has a 20 (or higher thanks to magic) score, before adding in magical items or such. Or warlords that toss out extra actions like candy, which allow for some sick combos. Or I see a warlord who is handing out class abilities (in the other thread) like giving everyone a minimum roll on rogue skills or a bonus that mimics barbarian rage. Or I see a warlord who can heal wounds, cure or mitigate conditions just by his voice and claim its nonmagical. I read about Insightful, Inspiring, and Bravada warlords and they all seem like "pick an ability score. Give it to your friends d20 rolls" rather than interesting archetypes that changes how the character is played. Above all, I'm not seeing what a warlord brings to the game other than "battlemaster, but more powerful" or "bard, but nonmagical." Nobody has convinced me that there is a way to MECHANICALLY do a warlord that isn't going break the game in one or more ways.

Now, there are a few who have tried there hand at making their own solution. I salute them. They are trying to give me a warlord that might not break the world by playing it. Not sure they're there yet, but they are trying. If it were me, I'd start with the marshal and add in a few later ideas from the warlord to strengthen it. Maybe I'd give him some form of supernatural power (not magic, but something like primal fury or music of creation) to explain his amazing leadership, charismatic magnetism and maybe even his healing. I might toss some parts of the Star Wars/Dragonlance Noble class as well. I'd build it around "tactical points" or somesuch to limit his abilities (a few at-wills and such, but no always on buffs) or perhaps require his "tactics" to use Concentration. Maybe then, we have a warlord who works in the confines of 5e.

So conceptually, I don't mind the idea. Mechanically, I haven't seen one suggested here or in the other thread that works. Nor really am I feeling the game is lacking for not having one right now (whereas I really want a good psionic and artificer class). So overall, I end up neutral. I just haven't seen anything much that doesn't sound like a DM headache.
That's a fair criticism. I agree that the warlord should work within the bounded accuracy and action economy for 5E. Even one-year after 5E, I think many tend to design with either 3E or 4E assumptions in mind as opposed to 5E. For the record, I'm mostly a "grant advantage to attacks" or "grant resistance to non-magical weapons" type of guy when it comes to conceptualizing the warlord in 5E. I still think there should be limited HP healing available for the warlord, but

In terms of archetypes and sub-classes, I think there should be more flavorful variety, including a magical sub-class (whether arcane or divine) that's focused on inspiring/healing- maybe called the 'herald' - for the warlord. Make the 'marshal' the more tactically-focused commanding type. And then one other sub-class depending on how the first two go. Instead of the 'types' of warlord in 4E, I suspect that one of the better potential starting points for warlord flavor for sub-classes should come from the paragon levels.

I may add more, but I have a lot to catch up on. Been preparing for a trip and traveling for the past 3-4 days.
 

Indeed, why wait? The downside of course is action economy, the warlord can only do so much at a time. To make that bite it might need to be a standard action. Higher level warlords might make it a minor action, that would help scaling.

They can do all they want when initiative isn't being tracked. And usually short-rests are an hour* to spend a HD. Why .not let the warlord use his inspiring word on each member of the party after combat ends. Even if there are five members and each spends 3 dice each; it will only take 15 rounds or 1 1/2 minutes to heal them. If nobody needs to recover short rest mechanics (like warlocks or monks) then you've not only eliminated the need for short rests, you're granting them extra hp as well!

The only way HD-granted healing works is if it itself is not at-will (X per short rest) or if it has limitations on use (only triggers when the PC is below half-hp or at 0 hp). The other option is to make warlord healing strictly inferior (1/2 roll or something) so that its used as a last resort vs. resting healing.

* Default. The Fast heal method speeds it up to 10 minutes, but you're still getting 8+ minute time advantage in addition to extra hp per die. The Slow heal method becomes worthless; 8 hours to spend a HD or 6 seconds, plus extra hp? That is a no-brainer choice.
 

They can do all they want when initiative isn't being tracked. And usually short-rests are an hour* to spend a HD. Why .not let the warlord use his inspiring word on each member of the party after combat ends. Even if there are five members and each spends 3 dice each; it will only take 15 rounds or 1 1/2 minutes to heal them. If nobody needs to recover short rest mechanics (like warlocks or monks) then you've not only eliminated the need for short rests, you're granting them extra hp as well!

The only way HD-granted healing works is if it itself is not at-will (X per short rest) or if it has limitations on use (only triggers when the PC is below half-hp or at 0 hp). The other option is to make warlord healing strictly inferior (1/2 roll or something) so that its used as a last resort vs. resting healing.

* Default. The Fast heal method speeds it up to 10 minutes, but you're still getting 8+ minute time advantage in addition to extra hp per die. The Slow heal method becomes worthless; 8 hours to spend a HD or 6 seconds, plus extra hp? That is a no-brainer choice.

Well, some choices ARE 'no-brainers'. After a fight you get the cleric to cast CLW vs using heal potions that you could save for another day, no-brainer. You swing your 2-hander instead of your short sword because its just a higher damage weapon for your build, no-brainer.

That being said, 5e doesn't assume, as 4e did, that you get a short rest after every encounter. So its quite possible that you just don't get a chance to do this sort of advantageous healing ALL the time. 4e also had a similar loophole, the 'multiple short rest drill' where the cleric burned his remaining Healing Words, then rested, then burned them again, rested again, etc (each rest being nominally 5 minutes this was often not a huge issue plot-wise). It definitely maximized HS utilization, but if its expected behavior then its not a BIG issue.

Of course if it seems to be TOO problematic then Inspiring Word can be limited to 'twice per short rest' or 'use a tactical die' or whatever the mechanic turns out to be. I will note however that 5e hit dice are VASTLY more limited than 4e HS were. Even a 4e wizard could easily restore his hit points 1.5x over, and maybe 3x over with a cleric's healing bonus. For a fighter it was more like 3x and 6x. In 5e only a 10 or less CON character can even do 1x on average, and then requires 2 days to fully recover by the standard rule. Upping that to 1.5x every 2 days isn't such a huge difference that it is likely to break entire adventures and make warlords seem mandatory. That also assumes that MOST of the warlord's healing is done out of combat, which is ignoring its most advantageous use scenario.

Again, I think I'd have to see actual specific workups of the class to be able to criticize the mechanics at this level for sure.
 

Well, some choices ARE 'no-brainers'. After a fight you get the cleric to cast CLW vs using heal potions that you could save for another day, no-brainer.

CW is limited by the number of cleric spell slots. Potions of healing either cost GP (50 per shot) or are rare and can't be made (without the DM allowing it). Both expend a resource that doesn't refresh quickly, making them valuable to share.

You swing your 2-hander instead of your short sword because its just a higher damage weapon for your build, no-brainer.

For your build. You forgo a shield (+2 AC) and the choice to use your Dex (if you want to make a dex-based fighter, a 2-hander is NOT a no-brainer. Quite the opposite). Sure, if you're going GWF and GWM, you want a greatsword, but if you went TWF and Dex-build, its certainly a dumb choice.

Both of your examples have an opportunity cost. What is the cost of spamming Warlord healing vs. taking a short rest? There is none. In fact, there is a reward (+Cha) to using the quicker method.

That being said, 5e doesn't assume, as 4e did, that you get a short rest after every encounter. So its quite possible that you just don't get a chance to do this sort of advantageous healing ALL the time.

Actually, that makes it worse. Since short rests are generally rarer, the ability to "top off" by using a HD without taking a short rest means PCs no longer have to gauge how hurt they are between combats (the trade off: do we wait and heal or press on) since they can effectively enter every combat again near full hp.

4e also had a similar loophole, the 'multiple short rest drill' where the cleric burned his remaining Healing Words, then rested, then burned them again, rested again, etc (each rest being nominally 5 minutes this was often not a huge issue plot-wise). It definitely maximized HS utilization, but if its expected behavior then its not a BIG issue.

I don't consider a "loophole" to be a good thing. Its just going to escalate the arms race between PCs and DMs seeking to challenge them.

And pity poor bards; in an hour they can grant you an extra d6 of healing per HD. Or the warlord can provide a static bonus (and lets be honest, its not going to be +1.) per HD in 6 seconds.

Of course if it seems to be TOO problematic then Inspiring Word can be limited to 'twice per short rest' or 'use a tactical die' or whatever the mechanic turns out to be. I will note however that 5e hit dice are VASTLY more limited than 4e HS were. Even a 4e wizard could easily restore his hit points 1.5x over, and maybe 3x over with a cleric's healing bonus. For a fighter it was more like 3x and 6x. In 5e only a 10 or less CON character can even do 1x on average, and then requires 2 days to fully recover by the standard rule. Upping that to 1.5x every 2 days isn't such a huge difference that it is likely to break entire adventures and make warlords seem mandatory. That also assumes that MOST of the warlord's healing is done out of combat, which is ignoring its most advantageous use scenario.

My personal desire for warlord healing is to be situational. Most of the great examples of Inspiring Speeches rousing a fallen comrade to fight on require a FALLEN comrade; maybe grant the warlord a feature like this.

ROUSE: A warlord can inspire even the fallen to rise up for one last shot at glory. As an action, you can cause an ally next to you who is below 0 HP to spend a hit dice and recover those many hp.

It captures the feeling of inspiring someone up, can be flavored however the DM likes (smell salts, triage, inspiring words, or a kick-and-being-told-to-wake-up), doesn't outclass HD in short rests (since it can only be used when the ally is at 0 hp) and doesn't redefine hp, inspiration, or come-off as magical. Warlords who want more healing can inspire allies (Temp HP) or have some sort of medical skill (like the healer feat or a class feature that works similar) or a bonus when the warlord is taking a short-rest (like a bard's song of healing).

Again, I think I'd have to see actual specific workups of the class to be able to criticize the mechanics at this level for sure.

That's the problem, everyone is arguing in a void because nobody is agreeing on what the warlord's parameters are beyond "tactics", "buffing" and "healing".
 

CW is limited by the number of cleric spell slots. Potions of healing either cost GP (50 per shot) or are rare and can't be made (without the DM allowing it). Both expend a resource that doesn't refresh quickly, making them valuable to share.
Uhuh, and Hit Die refresh even slower than spell slots. Thus if anything it should restore more than CW.
 

They can do all they want when initiative isn't being tracked.
Up to whatever limit is placed on Inspiring Word or similar abilities... (Oooh, this'd be a neat way of dealing with the issue of 'abusing' at-will hp-restoration out of combat, and it'd make a certain amount of sense: in-combat Inspiring Word restores hps, out of combat, it grants temps for the next combat.... if you do away with HD or otherwise find the normal use of Inspiring Word unpalatable, you just change it to always temps.)
The only way HD-granted healing works is if it itself is not at-will (X per short rest) or if it has limitations on use (only triggers when the PC is below half-hp or at 0 hp).
HD /are/ a limitation on use. A per day (per 2 days, really - they're the most limited, slowest-recovering resource in the game).

The other option is to make warlord healing strictly inferior (1/2 roll or something) so that its used as a last resort vs. resting healing.
Strict inferiority is never an option. But being able to trigger a HD as an action or as part of an action or a bonus action would never be strictly inferior to waiting an hour to do so. I like the idea of maximizing HD spent on a short rest - it makes it a clearly more efficient option (if you have the time), and it speeds up boring bookkeeping, while making the use in-combat (rolled) more exciting.

HD are already pretty inadequate, and adding to or maximizing HD would be a way of extending the hp resources of the party to handle the full 6-8 encounter day, without actual outright healing resources like Cure Wounds.

That being said, 5e doesn't assume, as 4e did, that you get a short rest after every encounter. So its quite possible that you just don't get a chance to do this sort of advantageous healing ALL the time. 4e also had a similar loophole, the 'multiple short rest drill' where the cleric burned his remaining Healing Words, then rested, then burned them again, rested again, etc (each rest being nominally 5 minutes this was often not a huge issue plot-wise). It definitely maximized HS utilization, but if its expected behavior then its not a BIG issue.
The 3e WoCLW accomplished something similar, too. The big problem with extending hp resources via a WoCLW wasn't extending hp resources - all that does is let the party handle a longer 'day' without dying, and the main effect of that is greater pressure on other daily resources, like spells - it was taking the use-for-healing pressure off of CoDzilla's spell resources. In 4e using surges more efficiently just extended the day, but it didn't free up substantial spell resources (healing spells were generally utilities, or already bundled with an attack, so trading them out for something else was minimally disruptive to balance). In 5e, healing spells are taken out of the same slots as higher-spotlight-impact spells, so more efficient use of HD because of a Warlord could free up some healer spell slots, but the encounter and game balance are so much loser that 'disruption' may hardly be noticed - besides, a second caster would have a much bigger impact, anyway.

Of course if it seems to be TOO problematic then Inspiring Word can be limited to 'twice per short rest' or 'use a tactical die' or whatever the mechanic turns out to be. In 5e only a 10 or less CON character can even do 1x on average, and then requires 2 days to fully recover by the standard rule. Upping that to 1.5x every 2 days isn't such a huge difference that it is likely to break entire adventures and make warlords seem mandatory. That also assumes that MOST of the warlord's healing is done out of combat, which is ignoring its most advantageous use scenario.

Again, I think I'd have to see actual specific workups of the class to be able to criticize the mechanics at this level for sure.
Yep. It's fun to speculate about possible mechanics, but it's too early to draw conclusions from such speculations. To really get into it, we'd need something official, like a UA version of the class.

CW is limited by the number of cleric spell slots. Potions of healing either cost GP (50 per shot) or are rare and can't be made (without the DM allowing it). Both expend a resource that doesn't refresh quickly, making them valuable to share.
And a HD trigger is even more limited, because HD are the single most limited resource in the entire game, taking twice as long to refresh as spells, and representing only a modest amount of healing, in total, that can't be shared out to the character who needs it the most the way spells can be.

Both of your examples have an opportunity cost. What is the cost of spamming Warlord healing vs. taking a short rest? There is none. In fact, there is a reward (+Cha) to using the quicker method.
You're assuming one possible example of the mechanic in a vacuum. What if the bonus applies to short rests, too, or was better for short rests, for instance? What if it couldn't be spammed? It wouldn't be difficult to find a solution to the issue you bring up, the hard part would be deciding on which perfectly good solution to use.

Actually, that makes it worse. Since short rests are generally rarer, the ability to "top off" by using a HD without taking a short rest means PCs no longer have to gauge how hurt they are between combats (the trade off: do we wait and heal or press on) since they can effectively enter every combat again near full hp.
Which would reduce the number of short rests per day, which would hurt a Warlord with a significant proportion of short-rest-recharge abilities...

And pity poor bards; in an hour they can grant you an extra d6 of healing per HD.
And they're full casters. No pity available, sorry. ;) I knew there was already a way to make HD during a rest much more efficient. That's an average +3.5 /per die/ and you're whinging about a secondary-stat-mod to one or more dice? And, it's on top of being able to throw out true healing in combat via Cure Wounds or Healing Word, on top of that greatly increased HD efficiency.

My personal desire for warlord healing is to be situational.
'Healing' is situational by definition. It's of no use when no one's wounded, is only nice to have when someone is, but is critically important when they're dropped, for instance.

That's the problem, everyone is arguing in a void because nobody is agreeing on what the warlord's parameters are beyond "tactics", "buffing" and "healing".
And even 'healing' isn't exactly right, since the warlord Inspires allies to restore hps, he doesn't shout their wounds closed. But, yes, it is absolutely too soon to be getting into specifics. First we have to get WotC to get the class in the pipeline, a UA or something, then we can worry over the specific mechanics.
 
Last edited:

So i realized the Mystic (ardent) would actually be a better place for the "aura" feature.

They already have the concentrate-on-passive-effect mechanic. And giving a "presences" aura bonus to all your allies feels more psionic then physical. (IMO)


That said, boosting a roll by spending your reaction (like cutting words), fills a similar spot.

Timely Words: The right words at the right time can the difference in close situations. As a reaction, you can give a creature who can see and hear you +1 or -1 to any attack, save, or ability check. You can use this after the dice are rolled but before the results happen.
This increases to +2 or -2 at level X, and +3 or -3 at level Y.

I like the idea of maximizing HD spent on a short rest - it makes it a clearly more efficient option (if you have the time), and it speeds up boring bookkeeping, while making the use in-combat (rolled) more exciting.
Works for me.

Stacks nicely with bardic insperation as well.
Though not so much with durable.
 

Stacks nicely with bardic insperation as well.
Though not so much with durable.
Not sure the opposite wouldn't be more desirable.
Two support classes not 'stacking' isn't so bad, not net-benefiting from a Feat kinda sucks.
But the bard's ability is written in a way that'd stack readily...
...disadvantage of adding to an existing system rather than building into it from the beginning.
 
Last edited:

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top