D&D 5E Reactions and Multi Attacks

[Hriston]

I don't actually think they considered Readied actions at all, so there is no RAI-at-the-time. Strictly literally there is nothing in the wording preventing Multi-Attack with Readied. But like I said it seems a good approach to rule that it works like PC Extra Attack.

Well, if you rearrange the wording of Multiattack into its logical equivalent it's easier to parse and goes something like this: If a creature has the Multiattack ability, it can make multiple attacks on its turn.

I don't know how likely it is that the designers didn't consider how the Ready action would interact with certain other actions that they intentionally placed into the game. Presumably, all this stuff has been through some kind of exhaustive playtest, so you'd think the issue would have come up once or twice.

What they might not have considered, however, is that we'd be looking at the actions listed in a monster's statblock and assuming they're all equivalent actions without any reference to the above cited text about what a multiattack action is. Obviously, a creature's claw or bite attacks are not equivalent to the use of its multiattack.

I think the thing to keep in mind is that not all actions are the same. Some actions are the result of an ability that can only be used on one's turn. A close reading of the text reveals that Multiattack is such an ability.

 

[Hriston]

Really, the entire "Ready" system is a symptom of the greater problem - Initiative or how D&D determines Initiative.

More specifically, the way it punishes characters for rolling better than their opponents.

Regardless of how you determine initiative, either group or "classic" D&D, the end result is oftentimes the same. There are some situations that exist where it is more advantageous to roll worse then their opponents. This was what the "Delay" system was implemented to correct. In 5th we don't have the delay system. Instead we have a tweaked ready system that for the most part does the job but for a few very specific situations. If one is okay with that compromise those situations may not come up at all during a game session.

So an example would be the party setting up an ambush for some Orcs about to enter a room. The Wizard and the Fighter both roll better than the Orcs. The wizard using is action to ready a web spell as soon as he sees the first one enter the room. Perfectly fine. He retains his ability to cast a good spell in a surprise factor. The Fighter readies his action to attack the first one through the threshold. Again, excellent tactics.

This one plays out where the first Orc through the door gets webbed and the fighter gets... 1 attack.

Now compare that to the scenario where the wizard rolls better, the orcs roll next, and the fighter rolls third. Now the wizard gets the web off as the Orcs come in, and the Fighter gets his full attack action of 2 or more attacks. Basically the fighter is punished for a better roll which doesn't really make a lot of tactical sense.

Granted, the wizard has to pay for that advantage cause if a fly lands on him prior to the casting of the spell he'll have to pass a concentration check.... but if the players set the ambush right that should not be a problem. I'm sure someone will bring up "well if the fighter rolled to go after the enemies, he's about to be a piñata for the incoming bad guys. At least under the current system he gets an attack!".

And they'd be right, except the fact the one attack the fighter gets isn't going to drop any of them, and he's still going to be a piñata as its not like the Orcs are moving far into the room....

I agree that 'dems da rulz, but just sayin...

The question I would ask about the above scenario is why Inititative was rolled before the participants were able to take hostile action. I've struggled with this issue myself in my own DMing, and after considering some of the discussions I've had here on ENWorld my approach has evolved somewhat.

I would prefer to run this combat in a way that avoids the need to Ready the opening attacks. Initiative wouldn't begin until the participants are about to come to blows. Since the Wizard and the Fighter are declaring their intention to attack the Orcs as soon as they enter the room, I would call for Initiative and have the first round begin as soon as the Orcs enter the room. Since you don't mention the Orcs being surprised, I'd assume they also intend to attack the Wizard and the Fighter as soon as they're in reach. If you roll Initiative at that point, why would anyone need to Ready an action?

 

[Shadai]

The question I would ask about the above scenario is why Inititative was rolled before the participants were able to take hostile action. I've struggled with this issue myself in my own DMing, and after considering some of the discussions I've had here on ENWorld my approach has evolved somewhat.

I would prefer to run this combat in a way that avoids the need to Ready the opening attacks. Initiative wouldn't begin until the participants are about to come to blows. Since the Wizard and the Fighter are declaring their intention to attack the Orcs as soon as they enter the room, I would call for Initiative and have the first round begin as soon as the Orcs enter the room. Since you don't mention the Orcs being surprised, I'd assume they also intend to attack the Wizard and the Fighter as soon as they're in reach. If you roll Initiative at that point, why would anyone need to Ready an action?

Don't read too much into that. I was just setting up a scenario without getting too wordy so people wouldn't get cross eyed and tl;dr. Assume the Orcs know the party is there cause they've been chasing them through the ruins so surprise doesn't come into play. Initiative may have already been rolled and the party ran to spread the Orc forces out. They ran into the room as a dead end and set up with their backs against the proverbial wall.

 

[Hriston]

... Assume the Orcs know the party is there cause they've been chasing them through the ruins so surprise doesn't come into play. Initiative may have already been rolled and the party ran to spread the Orc forces out. They ran into the room as a dead end and set up with their backs against the proverbial wall.

Okay, but in that situation the point of using Ready would be to interrupt the Orcs' movement on their turn so the Wizard and the Fighter could "get the jump" on them, kind of the classic use of the action. In the first case, where the Fighter and the Wizard have the initiative, and don't want to charge the Orcs, but are waiting for the Orcs to come to them, the Fighter will still get the full compliment of attacks first thing the next round, after the Orcs have had their turn. S/he loses nothing by readying an attack this round. S/he actually gets an extra attack in on the first Orc.

In the second case, where the Fighter's Initiative is lower than the Orcs', s/he might still be able to ready an attack the previous round while waiting for the Orcs to arrive, and then get all her/his attacks after the Orcs get their turn, which is pretty much the same result.

So I guess I don't understand how the Fighter is being punished for having a higher Initiative.

 

[Shadai]

Okay, but in that situation the point of using Ready would be to interrupt the Orcs' movement on their turn so the Wizard and the Fighter could "get the jump" on them, kind of the classic use of the action. In the first case, where the Fighter and the Wizard have the initiative, and don't want to charge the Orcs, but are waiting for the Orcs to come to them, the Fighter will still get the full compliment of attacks first thing the next round, after the Orcs have had their turn. S/he loses nothing by readying an attack this round. S/he actually gets an extra attack in on the first Orc.

In the second case, where the Fighter's Initiative is lower than the Orcs', s/he might still be able to ready an attack the previous round while waiting for the Orcs to arrive, and then get all her/his attacks after the Orcs get their turn, which is pretty much the same result.

So I guess I don't understand how the Fighter is being punished for having a higher Initiative.

......

I really don't know how else to explain this to you. Its not a difficult concept.

Scenario 1, fighter rolls higher:

20: Wizard - casts web and readies it at the first orc through the door
19: Fighter - ready an attack at first orc
18: Orcs move in, wizard cast web, fighter gets one swing (which isn't enough to kill a single orc unless he rolls really really well), orcs use fighter as punching bag but he survives
17: Everyone else goes for the rest of round


Scenario 2, fighter rolls lower:

20: Wizard - casts web and readies it at the first orc through the door
19: Orcs move in, wizard cast web, orcs use fighter as punching bag but he lives.
18: Fighter - gets full accompaniment of attacks, 2 on attack action, one on bonus action, (which should be good enough to drop at least one)
17: Everyone else goes for rest of round


So, in the first scenario, the fighter that rolled better is literally 1/3 as effective that first critical round. In contrast, the fighter in scenario two got his full shot and possibly reduced the number of enemies faced by a one. Meanwhile, the wizard casted a full level 1 spell as his action on the ready. Does that help?

 

[Saeviomagy]

Take a scenario where two foes are outside of movement range of each other, but close enough that a run will bring you into melee. Assume they are armed with melee weapons. We'll call them orc and fighter.

Whichever one chooses to move towards the other first will at best be able to attack with a readied action.
Whichever one chooses to move second gets a full attack.

In a white room, the best tactic for each one on their turn is to not move forward at all - because he simply gives away a round of attacks to his foe. Even if he moves forward while defending, it's still a free round for his foe. First up, that's an absurd scenario to be creating - it just emphasizes the quantization of time that the game has while not really producing anything beneficial for a story. If readying allowed you your full measure of attacks, this would be much less of a problem: unless the combatants were likely to die in a single full attack, there is no problem with being the first to move.

In a brawl however, it's unlikely that anyone will be able to afford standing around for a turn, so the only viable choice of either combatant is to approach his foe, which means that the lower initiative wins.

 

[Hriston]

......

I really don't know how else to explain this to you. Its not a difficult concept.

Scenario 1, fighter rolls higher:

20: Wizard - casts web and readies it at the first orc through the door
19: Fighter - ready an attack at first orc
18: Orcs move in, wizard cast web, fighter gets one swing (which isn't enough to kill a single orc unless he rolls really really well), orcs use fighter as punching bag but he survives
17: Everyone else goes for the rest of round


Scenario 2, fighter rolls lower:

20: Wizard - casts web and readies it at the first orc through the door
19: Orcs move in, wizard cast web, orcs use fighter as punching bag but he lives.
18: Fighter - gets full accompaniment of attacks, 2 on attack action, one on bonus action, (which should be good enough to drop at least one)
17: Everyone else goes for rest of round


So, in the first scenario, the fighter that rolled better is literally 1/3 as effective that first critical round. In contrast, the fighter in scenario two got his full shot and possibly reduced the number of enemies faced by a one. Meanwhile, the wizard casted a full level 1 spell as his action on the ready. Does that help?

No, because in your Scenario 1 the Fighter gets a full turn's action on initiative count 19 of the second round, less than a full round after the fight began when the Orcs entered the room on count 18. In both cases the Fighter is getting all his attacks right after the Orcs, and in Scenario 1 that's because he let them go first.

You should play this out for at least one full round to determine if the Fighter gets more or less attacks in that round.

Scenario 1: Fighter rolls higher and gets four attacks in one full round of fighting.

Scenario 2: Fighter rolls lower and gets three attacks in one full round of fighting.

That sounds reasonable to me.

 

[SuperZero]

Scenario 1, fighter rolls higher:

20: Wizard - casts web and readies it at the first orc through the door
19: Fighter - ready an attack at first orc
18: Orcs move in, wizard cast web, fighter gets one swing (which isn't enough to kill a single orc unless he rolls really really well), orcs use fighter as punching bag but he survives
17: Everyone else goes for the rest of round


Scenario 2, fighter rolls lower:

20: Wizard - casts web and readies it at the first orc through the door
19: Orcs move in, wizard cast web, orcs use fighter as punching bag but he lives.
18: Fighter - gets full accompaniment of attacks, 2 on attack action, one on bonus action, (which should be good enough to drop at least one)
17: Everyone else goes for rest of round


So, in the first scenario, the fighter that rolled better is literally 1/3 as effective that first critical round. In contrast, the fighter in scenario two got his full shot and possibly reduced the number of enemies faced by a one. Meanwhile, the wizard casted a full level 1 spell as his action on the ready. Does that help?

In the first scenario, the fighter got an attack in before the orcs ever acted. Before the orcs' second turn, he got three more.
In the second scenario, the fighter got no attacks in before the orcs ever acted. Before the orcs' second turn, she got three.

The fighter in the first scenario is always one attack ahead at any point. He may have gotten less out of the readied action than the wizard did (although more reliably), but he certainly got more than he'd have gotten without it. And he could've gotten the three, but chose to ready for some other tactical reason; he had more options than Scenario Two Fighter.
Where you're at in the cycle matters more than whether it happened in Round One or Round Two.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Exactly.

I generally like it better without delay, even if it took me some time to like it.
The players who are not coming from 3.5 don't miss it at all.

I am also starting to believe that disengage in its current state is not needed too. Since you stay in reach of the enemy after a disengage, it is often better to run and take the single attack or take the dodge action and be attacked with disadvantage.

 

[S'mon]

I already mentioned that and the counter point in the very post you quoted good sir!

I just don't understand how the Fighter is worse off by winning init - winning init gives him 1 attack before the orcs then full attack after. Losing init gives him 0 attacks before the orcs then full attack after.

Edit: Because your init does not change with Ready in 5e, you are always ahead.