D&D 5E About Bonus action attacks and shove.

[UnadvisedGoose445]

I guess i've not explained myself very well; i'm implying that ofc you can use the shield in the off hand and get both the shield +2AC and the dual wielder +1AC bonus for a total +3AC

This was very unclear to me, but I understand now. Personally I wouldn't allow one to gain the +2 from the shield if they are using it as an improvised weapon. It's either being used as a shield or it's being used as a weapon. I think that's a very fair interpretation, but I can understand other stances on it.

 

[Rya.Reisender]

Sage Advice (Jeremy Crawford) said that the feats for TWF don't work with a shield and you won't get the benefits from Dual Wielder.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Huh, well, I'd not have arrived at that particular unobvious conclusion myself, as then/if statements aren't something that occurs to me to consider.

It is a little subtle, but even with Crawford chiming in I think you could have arrived at the conclusion based on evidence: some bonus actions are defined as only happening after some other action is taken. Shield Master is not phrased that way; it merely says "when".

Which is good, because Prone only lasts until the victim's turn, so with unlucky initiative rolls (with the target going right after the shield master) at least one person (the shield master himself) gets the benefit.

I've used this feat a bunch, and sometimes it's really good, but it's not at all reliable. Initiative order, bad strength rolls (or good strength rolls from your opponent), large size, etc.

But I like that "unreliably good" makes for a fun mechanic.

 

[Ovinomancer]

It is a little subtle, but even with Crawford chiming in I think you could have arrived at the conclusion based on evidence: some bonus actions are defined as only happening after some other action is taken. Shield Master is not phrased that way; it merely says "when".

Which is good, because Prone only lasts until the victim's turn, so with unlucky initiative rolls (with the target going right after the shield master) at least one person (the shield master himself) gets the benefit.

I've used this feat a bunch, and sometimes it's really good, but it's not at all reliable. Initiative order, bad strength rolls (or good strength rolls from your opponent), large size, etc.

But I like that "unreliably good" makes for a fun mechanic.

Nope, because I parse 'when X' as X happening, not about to happen. When I come over isn't satisfied prior to me coming over. When we start the game isn't satisfied until the game starts. When you take an attack action isn't satisfied until you take an attack action. It's not a natural reading of the words to assume that 'when X' means 'when you've decided to do X, but maybe before X happens or maybe after it happens, so long as there's eventually X, you can do this'.

 

[Zalabim]

When you take the Attack action is not the same as when you make an attack. It's like a benefit that says "When you take the Dash action, you can ignore difficult terrain's increased movement cost for your turn." You don't have to wait until you've finished your movement, and you likewise don't have to wait until you finish your Attack action. It's usable at the same time.

On another front, Shove does say it's a melee attack and doesn't require an empty hand like grappling, so it should be usable with a melee weapon like a whip or halberd. Unless there's another clarification on that which I'll have to ignore to promote fun.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Nope, because I parse 'when X' as X happening, not about to happen. When I come over isn't satisfied prior to me coming over. When we start the game isn't satisfied until the game starts. When you take an attack action isn't satisfied until you take an attack action. It's not a natural reading of the words to assume that 'when X' means 'when you've decided to do X, but maybe before X happens or maybe after it happens, so long as there's eventually X, you can do this'.

Read Zalabim's response, above this one.

But even if you parse it as "when X is happening" it's fine, because the "Attack action" isn't a single swing of your weapon, so there's no reason you can't simultaneously take the Shove action.

And that relates to the point I made earlier, that some abilities/feats/whatever specifically say "after" you take the Attack action, and this one doesn't. If it's not "after" it can either be simultaneous or before, and either way works.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I agree that's what's been ruled, but I disagree that it's a natural reading of the rules. "When X' implies that X has already happened, not that X is in a state of Schrodingerian potential.

 

[kirkdent]

According to Crawford, you can take the bonus action before or after the triggering action, though you must take the action and can't change your mind.

This isn't even a Crawford opinion issue. The rule in the PHB for Bonus Actions (p 189) specifies that when an ability (feat, class feature, etc.) gives you a bonus action, you choose when that bonus action occurs, unless the ability is specific about when the bonus action can occur. The Shield Master feat says nothing about having to take the attack action FIRST, it just kinda seems that way because the bonus action depends on you making an attack. If they intended for the bonus action shove to only occur after the attack, it would SPECIFICALLY state that.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Nope, because I parse 'when X' as X happening, not about to happen. When I come over isn't satisfied prior to me coming over. When we start the game isn't satisfied until the game starts. When you take an attack action isn't satisfied until you take an attack action. It's not a natural reading of the words to assume that 'when X' means 'when you've decided to do X, but maybe before X happens or maybe after it happens, so long as there's eventually X, you can do this'.

"When you come over, bring tacos."

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

while i agree that shield master ofc also offers defensive benefits, we must all admit that the main purpose of the feat is the shove part; and that benefit specifically is used mostly for offensive reasons. Making it effectively a mosly offensive feat.

I disagree about shove being mostly offensive. If you can manage to shove someone prone, you also receive the excellent defensive benefit of depriving them of any attacks that turn except one opportunity attack at disadvantage: shove prone, attack a few times, then step back 20' and calmly wait. If he scrambles to his feet that costs 15' of movement, so he can't reach you on his turn, meaning the opportunity attack he got while prone is all he got.

Man, now I want to play a Shield Master Valor Bard.