D&D 5E Disintegrate Vs. Druid

[Pauper]

This is not supported by RAW. RAW causes the ash effect the instant 0 hit point is reached.

It astonishes me how many people quote RAW who have obviously not read the rules -- the description does not say that the target is 'instantly' disintegrated, only that it is disintegrated "f the damage reduces the target to 0 hit points", as I quoted in a previous post.

So a more accurate reading of the RAW would be:

- deal damage
- once damage is dealt, see if target is at 0 hit points as a result of this damage
- if yes, target is disintegrated

It's also telling that you are explicitly not following the RAW of the Wild Shape abliity, which tells you explicitly what to do when the beast form's hit points go to zero.

But, to quote the Angry GM, you can run your own game any wrong way you want.

 

[Maxperson]

It astonishes me how many people quote RAW who have obviously not read the rules -- the description does not say that the target is 'instantly' disintegrated, only that it is disintegrated "f the damage reduces the target to 0 hit points", as I quoted in a previous post.

The target IS reduced to 0 hit points.

So a more accurate reading of the RAW would be:

- deal damage
- once damage is dealt, see if target is at 0 hit points as a result of this damage
- if yes, target is disintegrated

Correct. This occurs when the wild shape hits 0.

It's also telling that you are explicitly not following the RAW of the Wild Shape abliity, which tells you explicitly what to do when the beast form's hit points go to zero.

Show me the rule that says which effect comes first, or that both effects don't happen.

 

[Noctem]

Pauper gets it. The Wildshape rules tell you exactly what happens when damage causes the forms HP to drop to 0, in fact this is basically one of the very few abilities that act as an interrupt during the resolution of another effect. Damage is the effect, I deal 20 damage to the wildshape form but it only has 10 Hp. I apply 10 hp worth of damage, then pause while the creature reverts back to the druid form, then apply the rest. This is why it works how I've described. Even if it was an exact amount, 10 damage for 10 hp, by the time disintegrate checks to see the current hp of the target it is already reverted back to druid form so would not be at 0 HP.

Again Pauper gets it, Maxperson does not. And no, saying that what you're rambling on about is RAW does not make it so buddy..

The wildshape forms HP is reduced to 0 which causes the creature to revert back to the druid form and apply any remaining damage to his actual HP pool. The check for 0 HP is done after ALL of the damage is applied and resolved, not half way through the application. There's an order to these things and the resolution of damage isn't interrupted unless it is specifically stated to be: LIKE WILDSHAPE SPECIFICALLY STATES. The creature which disintegrate is targeting is the druid, not the wildshape form which is what you're failing to understand.

 

[Wuzzard]

Oh, goody.

The "I must win the internet" debates did not end when WOTC forums closed.

<gets popcorn>

 

[Noctem]

Oh, goody.

The "I must win the internet" debates did not end when WOTC forums closed.

<gets popcorn>

This debate actually went on for a good 200 posts on the WOTC forums until we got Jeremy Crawford to actually directly answer what happens. I posted it up above but I'll do it again here:

The half-orc and barbarian features that allow targets to survive damage that would cause them to become unconscious (HP 0) don't work because disintegrate kills you outright. So this answers the specifics of "does disintegrate kill you outright?" A: Yes.

In the case of wildshape however, due to how the feature is worded and how it works with damage in general (note again that Power Word Kill works!), you would revert back to druid form first then apply any remaining damage to the druid HP pool and only if that hp pool is reduced to 0 hp would the special effect of the spell come into play. Simply dropping a wildshape form to 0 hp and causing the druid to revert DOES NOT disintegrate the druid. And due to the reasoning explained for why it works this way, it's also possible to extrapolate that other effects that proc from being reduced to 0 hp also wouldn't work in the same way.

The real question here though isn't about these features, the actual question is about the order of resolution when multiple things happen off a specific trigger (in this case being dropped to 0 HP). No one here, again NO ONE HERE, can claim to know for a fact the order of resolution because it is not defined in the rules of the game. Jeremy Crawford, lead designer of the game we're all playing, has directly stated how these game elements interact. Continuing to argue beyond that is nonsensical.

 

[Maxperson]

Pauper gets it. The Wildshape rules tell you exactly what happens when damage causes the forms HP to drop to 0, in fact this is basically one of the very few abilities that act as an interrupt during the resolution of another effect. Damage is the effect, I deal 20 damage to the wildshape form but it only has 10 Hp. I apply 10 hp worth of damage, then pause while the creature reverts back to the druid form, then apply the rest. This is why it works how I've described. Even if it was an exact amount, 10 damage for 10 hp, by the time disintegrate checks to see the current hp of the target it is already reverted back to druid form so would not be at 0 HP.

No matter how much you try to spin it, the language does not support your claims. There is no language that allows for it.

 

[Maxperson]

This debate actually went on for a good 200 posts on the WOTC forums until we got Jeremy Crawford to actually directly answer what happens. I posted it up above but I'll do it again here:

He did not answer what RAW was, because RAW does not support his statement. He very carefully said what RAI was.

In the case of wildshape however, due to how the feature is worded and how it works with damage in general (note again that Power Word Kill works!), you would revert back to druid form first then apply any remaining damage to the druid HP pool and only if that hp pool is reduced to 0 hp would the special effect of the spell come into play. Simply dropping a wildshape form to 0 hp and causing the druid to revert DOES NOT disintegrate the druid. And due to the reasoning explained for why it works this way, it's also possible to extrapolate that other effects that proc from being reduced to 0 hp also wouldn't work in the same way.

He never, ever said that. He only gave RAI since RAW does not support that assertion.

The real question here though isn't about these features, the actual question is about the order of resolution when multiple things happen off a specific trigger (in this case being dropped to 0 HP). No one here, again NO ONE HERE, can claim to know for a fact the order of resolution because it is not defined in the rules of the game. Jeremy Crawford, lead designer of the game we're all playing, has directly stated how these game elements interact. Continuing to argue beyond that is nonsensical.

He did not answer how they interact. He only answered what the intent was. RAW is different from RAI.

 

[Li Shenron]

The only way this could possibly be true is if disintegrate only did damage and had no turn to ash ability.

These are all facts.

1) disintegrate does damage.
2) if disintegrate reduces a creature to 0 hit points, you are turned to ash.
3) a wild shaped druid can be reduced to 0 hit points.
4) the wild shaped druid hits 0 hit points BEFORE reverting to his normal form.
5) there is no language in wild shape that can unwind death or other such effects like ash.
6) there is no language in wild shape that says that the reversion happens instead of being reduced to 0 hit point.

Given all of those facts, disintegrate by RAW does ash a wild shape the moment it hits 0 hit points prior to reversion. The result is a full hit point reverted pile of ash.

Each of those points are debatable, not facts.

Even if they were, I don't care about facts and I don't care about the RAW.

"Turn to ash" is fluff.

Both Wildshape and Disintegrate are specific rules. Specific trumps general. But specific vs specific is up to you.

 

[Noctem]

Right I think the key issue with this discussion is that maxperson has convinced him/herself that whatever he says / believes is literal RAW. So at this point there's really no point in even trying to discuss this further.

 

[Maxperson]

Each of those points are debatable, not facts.

They can't be debated rationally. The rules clearly state all of that. You could also "debate" that the sun comes out in the morning and sheds light.

Even if they were, I don't care about facts and I don't care about the RAW.

Excellent. That's a completely different thing and I support not caring about RAW........at least to an extent. RAW should be the foundation that you use to change RAW to be what you like.

"Turn to ash" is fluff.

Turning to ash is a mechanical effect with mechanical repercussions. It kills you and limits how you can be raised.

Both Wildshape and Disintegrate are specific rules. Specific trumps general. But specific vs specific is up to you.

This I can agree with. However as disintegrate is the active effect and wild shape is the reactive one, I'd have disintegrate go first. If I didn't know about the RAI that is.