D&D 5E Disintegrate Vs. Druid

[jaelis]

While it may not be intended to make druids immortal, it was also intended for disintegrate to not kill wild shapes. RAW doesn't support that intent and Crawford knows that, which is why instead of answering my question as a rules clarification as he usually does, he told me directly what the intent was rather than what the rules say.

An alternative is that Crawford knows the rules are ambiguous, and he told you the RAI since there is no clear RAW.

 

[Imaculata]

To me it seems the intent is clear: The Druid should not die in Wild Shape, he should return to his original form first, and to his original HP. The rules as written on the other hand, imply that the Druid should be reduced to dust, but I'd personally rule that class mechanics over rule the spell's effect.

 

[Sezarious]

By the time the DM is throwing disintegrate spells at your party, your Druid is reasonably likely to have more hp in their humanoid form than any of their animal forms, therefore if you rule against the Druid, they are in fact far more vulnerable than other party members when in beast form.

If you rule in favour of the Druid, you present them and the party with a disintegrate 'shield' of sorts, especially if the Druid tries to turn into a hawk, ready it's action and fly in the way of an oncoming spell. Granted, there're spells for that, but this method is always prepared.

On one hand, sometimes I look at the 5e Druid and go "Eh, boring", so might find their "Phoenix ability idea vs disintegrate" kind of cool. But at the same time, there are plenty of powerful raw damage spells that a Druid can do that with anyway. It's not the damage of the disintegrate spell that makes it special and iconic either, but the ash/dust effect, which is specifically one of the best ways to combat a creature with regeneration (I know this is different to Wild Shape, but the similarities are there)

On the other hand, I'm kind of a RAW person (bear with me here). I interpret that it's not the reduction to 0 hp that kills the Druid in beast form, but rather, that tiny fragment of time that the Druids beast form's internal organs including neurons in their brain turn to dust, however, as per RAW, I would say that as parts of the beast form disintegrate, just as instantaneously would the empty space begin to fill up with the flesh , clothing and objects of their humanoid form. Mundane objects would burn up mostly, but the disintegrate, once it eats up the body of the beast, would leave the druid's humanoid corpse, stripped of items, but intact.

This is probably the best compromise. Neither is gimped. Disintegrate gets it's pile of dust and dead Druid and the Druid got to change back into humanoid form and can be revived by a3rd level spell or a 5th level spell rather than a 9th level spell, which requires a 17th level healer.

I'd say that's a win win with a fairly RAW interpretation of the rules.

 

[Shirebrok]

I'd rule that the Druid is turned to ash, but really, a case can be made either way.

I have a Druid in an upcoming campaign, and we talked this point over but couldn't come to an agreement. We'll talk about it next time we meet, however I just thought of a potential house rule.

What if instead of assuming the shape's HP, the Druid gained the form's HP as Temp HP?

It's still a good buffer for damage and I think it eliminates some strange rules interactions. The only downside to it I can see is that the Wild Shape cannot be healed, because you can't heal Temp HP.

 

[Sezarious]

I'd rule that the Druid is turned to ash, but really, a case can be made either way.

What if instead of assuming the shape's HP, the Druid gained the form's HP as Temp HP?

It's still a good buffer for damage and I think it eliminates some strange rules interactions. The only downside to it I can see is that the Wild Shape cannot be healed, because you can't heal Temp HP.

Well, for all intents and purposes, wild shape hp are temp hp that CAN be healed. In scenarios without disintegrate, your damage carries over. Like I said though, the pro-dis integrators are saying that THIS particular spell doesn't actually kill you with its damage necessarily. If a fireball spell knocks you down to 0, you 're not need, you're bleeding out. Disintegrate is special because of its ability to turn a body into dust. That's what's ALWAYS been special about it as a spell. It's designed to burn a hole through a wall of force. It's that intense. It's amazing the wizard who casts it doesn't lose a little bit of his fingertip with every casting.

As both a DM and a player, I very much dislike when you have two extremes arguing their side. Again, I think when you're reduced to 0hp with a disintegrate spell, you're ashes, but given that a beast shape Druid has less hp and can't cast in said form, let the body wildshape back and the beasts ashes remain.

-The disintegrators have their ashes
-The Druids have their humanoid body still intact ready for revivify

The raw rules on each side have been fullfilled

 

[Maxperson]

An alternative is that Crawford knows the rules are ambiguous, and he told you the RAI since there is no clear RAW.

I suppose that's possible, but very unlikely since the rules are clear. They very clearly say that the druid assumes the hit points of the beast, so they can't be temporary hit points. They very clearly say you hit 0 hit points before reversion, so they are not a continuous hit point pool. They very clearly lay out the few exceptions to that, which is pure damage and unconsciousness, so it cannot overcome death or being ashed. It's very clear.

 

[epithet]

Y'know, I am typically of the opinion that you can play the game how you want, and there is no "wrong" way to D&D.

This scenario is an exception to that.

If you are running a campaign with a druid that wild-shapes into a beast that only has a few hit points (knowing that he'll revert to his humanoid form if those hit points are lost) and you hit him with a disintegrate spell, and despite the fact that it doesn't do enough damage to kill the druid's humanoid form you destroy the character anyway, permanently... You're playing wrong, and I wouldn't want to be in your campaign.

There are a few people who seem to say "rules as written" when what they really mean is "screw the player character." I've been in campaigns where, instead of the players and DM working together to create a narrative of triumph and tragedy, the DM felt like it was his prerogative to be adversarial--as if it were some kind of contest between the DM and the players, and the DM was out to win. Those were bad campaigns, the kind where you quit the group mad at yourself for staying past the first session, thinking about it in terms of hours of your life you can never get back.

Sometimes, characters die. Rarely (past low levels,) that death is permanent. Never, ever should a permanent character death be the result of an ambiguous rule. I've had characters perma-die, sometimes because I screwed up and other times because of something epic. It leads to a great story, remembered for years afterward: "Remember when my rogue got eaten by that dragon?" It makes you want to make a new character and get back into the game world.

However, "Remember that time the DM wiped out my character with some 'rules as written' crap?" does not make you want to roll some more dice. It makes you think about hours of your life you can never get back.

 

[epithet]

...It's very clear.

It's not clear at all.

The druid's wild shape ability says the druid reverts at zero. The disintegrate spell says you ash at zero. They do not agree, and they are both specific. It is ambiguous, and your apparent passion for the primacy of the disintegrate text does not make it less ambiguous to anyone but you.

 

[jaelis]

I suppose that's possible, but very unlikely since the rules are clear. They very clearly say that the druid assumes the hit points of the beast, so they can't be temporary hit points. They very clearly say you hit 0 hit points before reversion, so they are not a continuous hit point pool. They very clearly lay out the few exceptions to that, which is pure damage and unconsciousness, so it cannot overcome death or being ashed. It's very clear.

The rules don't clearly say whether you turn to dust first or revert to normal form first. Both effects occur when you drop to 0 hp, and there's no general rule to say which has priority.

 

[Maxperson]

I'd rule that the Druid is turned to ash, but really, a case can be made either way.

I have a Druid in an upcoming campaign, and we talked this point over but couldn't come to an agreement. We'll talk about it next time we meet, however I just thought of a potential house rule.

What if instead of assuming the shape's HP, the Druid gained the form's HP as Temp HP?

It's still a good buffer for damage and I think it eliminates some strange rules interactions. The only downside to it I can see is that the Wild Shape cannot be healed, because you can't heal Temp HP.

If you want to avoid the strange interactions, just house rule the hit point pool to be continuous with no 0 reached. Something replacing "When you hit 0 you revert" to "When you would hit 0, instead you revert"