D&D 5E Disintegrate Vs. Druid

[jaelis]

It's irrelevant which happens first. Both happen. You revert and you ash, or you ash and revert. Either way you are a pile of reverted ashes.

If they both happen, then you turn into dust and are dead, and also revert to your normal form and are alive. Those are not compatible, you have to pick one that happens, or decide on some kind of blended result.

 

[Noctem]

If they both happen, then you turn into dust and are dead, and also revert to your normal form and are alive. Those are not compatible, you have to pick one that happens, or decide on some kind of blended result.

It's totally relevant which happens first as jaelis points out and that's what this entire discussion is actually about. And in this case, wildshape reversion happens first every time because it specifically happens DURING the damage phase. You can take 10 damage, revert and then take any remaining damage. That's an exception to the general rules. You revert during the resolution of damage as soon as the damage brings you to 0. However, the disintegration effect can only happen AFTER damage is applied and resolved. At which point, it won't disintegrate a druid unless the druid's actual HP pool is reduced to 0 by "any remaining damage" from the spell after reversion. This is the RAW and this is also the RAI that Jeremy Crawford stated. You cannot interrupt damage resolution unless the effect specifically states that it does. Wildshape does, disintegrate doesn't.

 

[Maxperson]

This is a misuse of RAI. RAW is always open to interpretation. RAI tells us what the preferred interpretation is.

No. RAW is always open to change. Many rules have only one interpretation because they are crystal clear. For example, druids get Wild Shape and Druid Circle at 2nd level. There is no other interpretation possible for that rule.

 

[Maxperson]

However, what other game term do we have for a pool of hp, separate from your character's hp, that acts as a buffer between your "true" hp and the damage you take, allowing you only to take damage if that damage exceeds the pool of "not true" hp that is represented by the wild shape form?

Wild Shape hit point don't do the exact same thing as temporary hit points. For example, you can heal damage to a Wild Shaped druid, but you cannot heal temporary hit points. Therefore, they cannot be the same thing.

 

[Maxperson]

And also importantly, the disintegrate spell does not target the wildshape form, it targets the druid. The druid's health pool is NEVER reduced to 0 HP when the wildshape health pool goes to 0.

The druid has two distinctly different health pools. One is the Wild Shape pool, "When you (druid) transform you (druid) assume the beasts hit points (separate druid pool of hit points) and hit dice." That separate druid pool of hit points is reduced to 0 prior to reversion.

1. Disintegrate targeting druid in wildshape form.
2. Spell deals 10 damage, druid currently has 5 hp in wildshape form.
3. Damage is applied. Druid takes 5 damage, reverts back to druid form and now has 20 hit points, remaining 5 damage is applied. Druid is left with 15 out of 20 hit points.
4. Disintegrate checks to see how much hp the target currently has. Druid has 15 hp left. Special effect can't come into play since the target does not have 0 hp.

Incorrect. The druid hits 0 per RAW prior to reversion since the DRUID assumed the hit points of the beast. It's not possible for that not to happen by RAW.

You cannot pause the resolution of the damage step, or any other step in fact, in order to apply an effect out of turn.

No pause is necessary. To use magic terms, ashing is put on the stack as soon as the druid hits 0 in beast form. Go ahead and continue reversion before applying the ash effect. There is no rule that says that the ash does not take effect if your hit points go above 0 before resolution of disintegrate ashing.

You have to follow the order of resolution found in the Making an Attack section of the PHB. The disintegration effect itself is the last part of the spell and only comes into effect once damage is resolved. Once damage is resolved, the check is done and the current hp pool is checked.

This is a house rule, not RAW. There is no rule that says checks wait for the damage resolution to complete. Disintegrate is a very specific rule that says you are turned to ash if your hit points hit 0. That's unavoidable by the Wild Shaped druid.

 

[Imaculata]

You cannot pause the resolution of the damage step, or any other step in fact, in order to apply an effect out of turn. You have to follow the order of resolution found in the Making an Attack section of the PHB. The disintegration effect itself is the last part of the spell and only comes into effect once damage is resolved. Once damage is resolved, the check is done and the current hp pool is checked. Not the one from last turn, not the one from wildshape (the wildshape form is not what is targeted by the spell!), the current hp pool.

This is a point that I had not yet considered. The spell effect could trigger after the damage phase, and the wild shape effect could trigger during the damage phase. However, the spell description leaves it completely unclear:

Disintegrate
A thin green ray springs from your pointing finger to a
target that you can see within range. The target can be a
creature, an object, or a creation of magical force, such
as the wall created by wall of force.
A creature targeted by this spell must make a
Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the target takes
10d6 + 40 force damage. If this damage reduces the
target to 0 hit points, it is disintegrated.
A disintegrated creature and everything it is wearing
and carrying, except magic items, are reduced to a pile
of fine gray dust. The creature can be restored to life
only by means of a true resurrection or a wish spell.
This spell automatically disintegrates a Large or
smaller nonmagical object or a creation of magical
force. If the target is a Huge or larger object or creation
of force, this spell disintegrates a 10-foot-cube portion of
it. A magic item is unaffected by this spell.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a
spell slot of 7th level or higher, the damage increases by
3d6 for each slot level above 6th.

 

[Maxperson]

If they both happen, then you turn into dust and are dead, and also revert to your normal form and are alive. Those are not compatible, you have to pick one that happens, or decide on some kind of blended result.

Re-read druid. Nowhere does it say that reversion brings you back to life. You can be dead and have hit points. Power word kill proves that. You revert back as a druid who is ashed at whatever hit points the druid had when disintegrate is done. There is no incompatibility.

 

[Maxperson]

This is a point that I had not yet considered, but its pretty clear if you think about it. Its hard to refute. The spell effect indeed triggers after the damage phase, but the wild shape effect triggers during the damage phase.

Not really. All it says is that if this damage reduces the target to 0, it is disintegrated. The wild shape is in fact reduced to 0 by "this damage". It was probably intended for it to be the last thing that happened, but it is not written to require it to be that way.

 

[Imaculata]

Not really. All it says is that if this damage reduces the target to 0, it is disintegrated. The wild shape is in fact reduced to 0 by "this damage". It was probably intended for it to be the last thing that happened, but it is not written to require it to be that way.

You are correct, upon rereading the description. I have changed my post to reflect this, and quoted the text in the book.

 

[Bleys Icefalcon]

Well if there's a couple things I've learned after reading through this discussion. I have to determine if I am going to either A) House Rule - severely tweak wild shape, or B) House rule - remove disintegrate from my game.