D&D 5E Disintegrate Vs. Druid

[Maxperson]

The rules don't clearly say whether you turn to dust first or revert to normal form first. Both effects occur when you drop to 0 hp, and there's no general rule to say which has priority.

It's irrelevant which happens first. Both happen. You revert and you ash, or you ash and revert. Either way you are a pile of reverted ashes.

 

[epithet]

It's irrelevant which happens first. Both happen. You revert and you ash, or you ash and revert. Either way you are a pile of reverted ashes.

No, because if you revert first you're not at zero any more, and you apply spill-over damage to your druid's humanoid hit point pool to see if you reach zero (again) for the disintegrate effect. Y'know, like Crawford said.

Considering that Wiz's in-house rules lawyer has already indicated that disintegrate will ash a druid only if his humanoid hit point pool is wiped out, I'm a bit puzzled about the outcome you hope to see from this debate.

 

[Mouseferatu]

If you are running a campaign with a druid that wild-shapes into a beast that only has a few hit points (knowing that he'll revert to his humanoid form if those hit points are lost) and you hit him with a disintegrate spell, and despite the fact that it doesn't do enough damage to kill the druid's humanoid form you destroy the character anyway, permanently... You're playing wrong, and I wouldn't want to be in your campaign.

I think that largely depends on how the DM handled it. If it's played as a "Gotcha!" moment, I might agree with you. If it's made clear from the get-go, however, that disintegrate and similar spells are an exception to the normal wild shape order of operations--so the druid can make informed choices--then there's nothing wrong with it.

 

[Maxperson]

No, because if you revert first you're not at zero any more, and you apply spill-over damage to your druid's humanoid hit point pool to see if you reach zero (again) for the disintegrate effect. Y'know, like Crawford said.

Disintegrate has already triggered, so it doesn't matter how many hit points the druid goes to after he reverts. Disintegrate doesn't untrigger. The order of things doesn't change the outcome.

Considering that Wiz's in-house rules lawyer has already indicated that disintegrate will ash a druid only if his humanoid hit point pool is wiped out, I'm a bit puzzled about the outcome you hope to see from this debate.

It was me he answered and he said no such thing. He only gave the intent of wild shape. He made no ruling on what was written.

 

[Hriston]

He only gave the intent of wild shape. He made no ruling on what was written.

This is a misuse of RAI. RAW is always open to interpretation. RAI tells us what the preferred interpretation is.

 

[Imaculata]

Sometimes, characters die. Rarely (past low levels,) that death is permanent. Never, ever should a permanent character death be the result of an ambiguous rule. I've had characters perma-die, sometimes because I screwed up and other times because of something epic. It leads to a great story, remembered for years afterward: "Remember when my rogue got eaten by that dragon?" It makes you want to make a new character and get back into the game world.

However, "Remember that time the DM wiped out my character with some 'rules as written' crap?" does not make you want to roll some more dice. It makes you think about hours of your life you can never get back.

This is how I feel about it as well. The outcome of Wild Shape versus Disintegrate is unclear, but would you want your character to be permanently destroyed because your DM leaned one way, instead of the other? That seems like a very lame way to go.

And lets not forget that the changing-back-rule exists to give Druids some tanking capability. It is supposed to act like a shield, so that the HP you lose while in beast form is not your only health pool. By ruling in favor of disintegrate, you undermine a core game rule of the class.

I understand that disintegrate is a special spell. Its ability to reduce creatures to dust is one of the crucial details that makes it different from an ordinary damage spell. But that aspect is based purely on damage, and this Druid ability is intended to soak up damage. If you want a ruling that is more in the middle, do the following:

The animal form is reduced to ashes. The druid returns to his human form, at the hit points he had before changing into animal form, and any remaining damage from the spell spills over.

Optional: All the items that melted into the form are reduced to dust as well.
Optional: The Druid can possibly no longer shape shift into this animal.

 

[Uchawi]

In hindsight, they should have implemented save or die affects. Tying these things to hit points just opens up a can of worms and make s the game more complex or at least more convoluted.

 

[Chaosmancer]

There are no temporary hit points involved with wild shape. Anywhere. Read it again and see if you can quote me the part that says, "The druid gains temporary hit points equal to the number the animal he is wild shaping into possesses." I'm going to bet that you can't do it.

Making the hit points of the wild shape into temporary hit points is a house rule. RAW does not support it.

You are correct, no where in wild shape does it say "Temporary Hitpoints"

However, what other game term do we have for a pool of hp, separate from your character's hp, that acts as a buffer between your "true" hp and the damage you take, allowing you only to take damage if that damage exceeds the pool of "not true" hp that is represented by the wild shape form?

Like the Wizard's Abjuration Ward, wildshape protects the caster from damage until it runs out.

 

[Imaculata]

You are correct, no where in wild shape does it say "Temporary Hitpoints"

However, what other game term do we have for a pool of hp, separate from your character's hp, that acts as a buffer between your "true" hp and the damage you take, allowing you only to take damage if that damage exceeds the pool of "not true" hp that is represented by the wild shape form?

Like the Wizard's Abjuration Ward, wildshape protects the caster from damage until it runs out.

Simple: It's a second health pool.

 

[Noctem]

And also importantly, the disintegrate spell does not target the wildshape form, it targets the druid. The druid's health pool is NEVER reduced to 0 HP when the wildshape health pool goes to 0. At that point you revert back to druid form and any remaining damage is applied to the druid's real health pool. All these effects that proc from reducing a creature to 0 hit points via damage will never trigger from reducing wildshape to 0 because the creature targeted by the effect is not reduced to 0 hit points by damage. The druid reverts back as a result. This is the order:

1. Disintegrate targeting druid in wildshape form.
2. Spell deals 10 damage, druid currently has 5 hp in wildshape form.
3. Damage is applied. Druid takes 5 damage, reverts back to druid form and now has 20 hit points, remaining 5 damage is applied. Druid is left with 15 out of 20 hit points.
4. Disintegrate checks to see how much hp the target currently has. Druid has 15 hp left. Special effect can't come into play since the target does not have 0 hp.

You cannot pause the resolution of the damage step, or any other step in fact, in order to apply an effect out of turn. You have to follow the order of resolution found in the Making an Attack section of the PHB. The disintegration effect itself is the last part of the spell and only comes into effect once damage is resolved. Once damage is resolved, the check is done and the current hp pool is checked. Not the one from last turn, not the one from wildshape (the wildshape form is not what is targeted by the spell!), the current hp pool.