D&D 5E Does Eberron need to be high fantasy?

[EzekielRaiden]

I agree, Magepulp is a better description!

Glad you liked it. Though even with what I said above, I do think there are certain strains of "punk-like" thought that run through Eberron--such that, if you tweaked a few knobs, you could run it as a more punk-y universe. Biggest thing would be to make the various Dragonmarked Houses the equivalent of Shadowrun's megacorps: dramatically more powerful than most governments, doing whatever they like in search of profit and damn the consequences.

On another note, if someone really wants to do a lower magic version of Eberron, I always found the Iron Kingdom setting from Privateer Press to have some similar beats (nations recently at war, political intrigue, magic fueled tech) but grittier.

Yeah I...guess I just don't see Eberron as a world that works with "low magic." If you can make it "low magic" in the sense that true "Mages" are exceedingly rare, but certain forms of "tamed" magic are employed (the equivalent of steam engines and gas lines in Victorian England), I could see it working--but that is at very best a SUPER nuanced take on "low magic."

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Something else also came to me, while I was thinking about this stuff after my first post. I think part of the problem is that "High Fantasy" is actually a bigger umbrella than we give it credit for. A lot of people think "High Fantasy" is exclusively Tolkienian fantasy, and I don't think I agree with that. Tolkien-style worlds are one kind, but there are others. As a sort of distant example, consider "space opera." For many, Star Wars is the defining example of space opera--but for many others, E.E. "Doc" Smith's Lensman novels, or Isaac Asimov's Foundation series, or Iain M. Banks' Culture novels, or even the Homeworld or Mass Effect games, are more "defining" of the genre. And there are a lot of places where these stories differ greatly from each other, in technology, types and varieties of species, and scope.

Just as Asimov's Foundation books can be about a galaxy-spanning mono-racial culture with comparatively limited development for its age, while Banks' Culture stories can have an endless profusion of phenotypes and effective immortality, so too can Middle Earth (where great magic exists, but is rare and mysterious and often dangerous) share a genre with Eberron (where minor magic is so commonplace it becomes almost invisible, but profound magic is rare at best).

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[MENTION=6787754]Krakenspire[/MENTION]

A few things. One: I dunno where you found that definition of "high fantasy," but it's not the way I've ever used the term. I think it's entirely possible to have a "high fantasy" that's set in the real world, it just needs to have people maintaining a Masquerade (as TVTropes would put it), and regular humans that have a natural Weirdness Censor. Harry Potter comes to mind as precisely that--the Wizarding World is very much high fantasy, with consistent rules (how often does Hermione have to remind them about Gamp's Law of Elemental Transfiguration and the Five Principle Exceptions to it? Or that electronic devices don't work on the Hogwarts grounds?), a frequent sense of wonder and mystery, and magic festooning out of every corner. But it's set in "our" world too--it's just a secret side of our world.

Two: Don't forget, in your discussions of steampunk, that that is NOT the "original" punk genre! The term first arose in reference to the novel Neuromancer...as cyberpunk. That's where it gets all of the hyper-industrial, hyper-commercialized, pollution-everywhere, morality-out-the-window trappings, because it's a world where the disaffection of the postmodern era is ramped up to fever pitch, where the "rule of law" is conducted more by corporations (with almost-cartoonishly self-seeking directors/CEOs/etc.) Steampunk arose, initially, as an attempt to take the social aspects of cyberpunk, and transfer them to a different historical-technological era. And for all its moral ambiguity, Eberron still seems to be a place where you can be a real hero, where good actually does accomplish things--something that cyberpunk, and most "classical" [thing]punk works (regardless of the prefix), tends to avert HARD.

I absolutely agree that Eberron, socially and "technologically," is more like the real world between, say, 1910 and 1945--the period of the two World Wars--than it is like the Victorian or US Civil War eras. This is not a culture undergoing an industrial revolution per se--though industry is expanding rapidly. It's a culture undergoing a revolution more like the electric revolution. It's a culture engaged not so much in colonialism (though that is still a thing), but in brinksmanship and webs-of-alliances between Great Powers.

That's why I call it "magepulp." It's a kind of world that Indiana Jones or Doc Savage would inhabit. Many of the actors in such a world have tints of grey to them, like Dr. Jones himself (definitely in it for some money/fame/artifacts for his college) or even Belloq, who insisted on treating Dr. Jones with a certain minimum (VERY minimum...) decency. But in the end, I think most (adventure-relevant) characters can be grouped into "white-what's-got-grubby" and "Seriously Bad People." Sometimes, Seriously Bad People want some things that are good, but seek them in evil ways, or at inappropriate times, or for further, darker ends. That doesn't stop them from being Seriously Bad--it just makes them more interesting.

 

[DEFCON 1]

What's been interesting for me as I've been trying to formulate ideas for an eventual Eberron campaign using 5E has been figuring out the best way to give out the essence of Eberron's magic system of "much breadth but little depth".

The setting tells us straight out that magic is so prevalent that almost everyone has access to it. Blacksmiths craft their items with an assist from magic. Magecrafters build magic items all over the place. The Last Wars was filled with rank upon rank of wand-wielders throwing spells across the battlefield. But there are much fewer high-powered (or using D&D terms "high-leveled") spellcasters. There's a shitton of minor magic able to be cast, but very little high-level magic (without the use of rituals and schema and the like.)

So trying to fine that balance-- the expectation that if there was going to be a wizard character in the party (for example)-- how do I run the campaign such that this PC doesn't become so overpowered in relation to the rest of the campaign world in an unrealistic amount of time? Does the Downtime mechanic become a necessary part of the setting so that the spellcaster PCs don't go from the magical rabble (like the rest of the world) to throwing around fireballs and ice storms naturally (IE not via magic item) in a matter of months? Because in Eberron, they shouldn't be. Magical advancement and power doesn't work that fast nor for that many people.

It's been an interesting conundrum. Giving minor magic to more regular people across the board (especially ones who have dragonmarks)... but not having them be actual "spellcasters" (as we might define high-leveled PCs). Do I give the High Elf's "free cantrip" ability to every race as an option they can trade into (using the same idea of racial feature swaps we saw in the SCAG for the tiefling?) Thus giving us many more people of all the races across the board who have minor magic at their fingertips? Do I make 'Dragonmarked' perhaps its own Background whose feature is the Magic Initiate feat (so they get two cantrips *and* a 1st level spell since those with dragonmarks have much more magical power than the rest of society even without "PC levels")... but if so how do I possibly balance that feature against other potential Backgrounds? How do I get across the prevalence of magic items throughout society without actually disempowering the identity of any potential spellcaster PC?

I know there's a key that will unlock the magic system of Eberron and how PCs should stack up against it. I just have to keep searching for it.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Quick note on the Silver Flame. The repression and executions you're talking about were committed by an extremist offshoot of the faith, and were not the sort of thing the actual church condones or allows. The Silver FLame has some corruption, but by and large is genuinely a force for good, protecting the people from supernatural evil.

anyway, Eberron as magepunk is fine, guys. The punk part is only associated with distopia in the case of cyberpunk. Steampunk is an inherently optimistic genre, on the other hand. Regardless of origins, words mean things based on how their used, which means that punk can mean either thing.

But Eberron is influenced just as much by pulp, noir and dieselpunk stories. Really, Eberron is pulp Gaslamp fantasy.

also, remember that in Eberron, the PCs are exceptional, in ever sense of the word. The norms don't apply. Your wizard PC is the most powerful wizard of the age, your bard's songs will be remembered for centuries, your fighter will...idk fighters bore me, you get the idea. They should be shooting past normal timelines of advancement like the rest of the world has been hit by an epic slow spell.

Try having your characters be the person who invents the high level things they're doing. Like, your wizard is the guy that these spells will be named after in a later age, because she invented them.

 

[Krakenspire]

Something else also came to me, while I was thinking about this stuff after my first post. I think part of the problem is that "High Fantasy" is actually a bigger umbrella than we give it credit for. A lot of people think "High Fantasy" is exclusively Tolkienian fantasy, and I don't think I agree with that.

**snip**

A few things. One: I dunno where you found that definition of "high fantasy," but it's not the way I've ever used the term. I think it's entirely possible to have a "high fantasy" that's set in the real world, it just needs to have people maintaining a Masquerade (as TVTropes would put it), and regular humans that have a natural Weirdness Censor.

Yes Harry Potter is a good example of high fantasy as there are three subgenres of high fantasy,

1- setting in which the primary world does not exist. That is, the primary is either separated from the setting entirely, or is separated from it by a great distance in space and/or time.
2 - The secondary/parallel world(s) is (are) entered through a portal from the primary world
3- A distinct world-within-a-world is part of the primary world

Tolkienian is high fantasy but its also the genre of epic fantasy. This is where people get confused. They think that lots of magic means high fantasy where as the term was coined directly.

For example the Song of Ice and Fire series is high fantasy that does away with the many of the epic fantasy elements. There is also quite a bit of sword and sorcery in the books as well (as it focuses less on world shattering threats and more on the individual struggles of people). And its kinda low magic (though getting more high magic with every book).

Its a bit of a convoluted argument as we could discuss about it for days with overlapping conflicting definitions. At the end of the day the phrase was coined by Lloyd Alexander in his essay "High Fantasy and Epic Romance". If you can find a link to that you can get the exact definition from the start of the term.

As for D&D, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, FR are great examples of high fantasy. Darksun is more sword and sorcery (as the world is already screwed), and Eberron is magic Pulp/Noir (cloak and dagger if you like).

Quick note on the Silver Flame. The repression and executions you're talking about were committed by an extremist offshoot of the faith, and were not the sort of thing the actual church condones or allows. The Silver Flame has some corruption, but by and large is genuinely a force for good, protecting the people from supernatural evil.

The Silver Flame itself is corrupted. The demon trapped inside it sometimes speaks for the Flame. That means even good followers of the Flame do bad things if the Flame speaks to them. Hence the entire Whispering Flame organization and the results of the Lycanthrope Purge led by the then Speaker who had ulterior motives to weaken Aundair before the Last War. The church itself condones lots of behaviour for over zealous followers because the Cardinals don't have to be good. Cardinal Krozen for example is LE and works to make himself the most powerful of the Cardinals. Not above assassination or blackmail that guy. The actual church is not good. It's like any monolithic religion in the real world. People want power, do what they need to get it, use religion as a cover.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The Silver Flame itself is corrupted. The demon trapped inside it sometimes speaks for the Flame. That means even good followers of the Flame do bad things if the Flame speaks to them. Hence the entire Whispering Flame organization and the results of the Lycanthrope Purge led by the then Speaker who had ulterior motives to weaken Aundair before the Last War. The church itself condones lots of behaviour for over zealous followers because the Cardinals don't have to be good. Cardinal Krozen for example is LE and works to make himself the most powerful of the Cardinals. Not above assassination or blackmail that guy. The actual church is not good. It's like any monolithic religion in the real world. People want power, do what they need to get it, use religion as a cover.

That is certainly one way to interpret the Silver Flame, and if that works in your Eberron games, cool. But that isn't at all how my group has interpreted it, and I don't think it really matches Keith Baker's writing on the subject, either.
You also seem to have decided that only things which are entirely without corruption are Good, which makes no sense at all to me. The Church of the Silver Flame is definitely good. People make more of influences like Krozen, and the strength of Bel Shalor, who is still very much imprisoned by the Flame, than really makes sense. Krozen and the Whispering Flame stand out exactly because TCSF is, by and large, a force for good with a strong history of protecting the innocent from supernatural evil. It is one of the least corrupt institutions in the setting.

An important thing to remember about the Silver Flame is that it is literally fed by optimism and altruism. So, most of the Purified are, to some degree, genuinely optimistic and altruistic. Figures like Krozen and those who listen to the whispers of the imprisoned Bel Shalor are very, very much the exception. And the Aundarian Pure Flame zealots are very much not in the mainstream in the Church. I can't find it because the wotc forums are gone, but I remember Keith Baker saying in a forum post that most of the faithful oppose the Pure Flame and the theocracy. It's just that the Pure Flame has enough power to stick around in Aundair, and the people of Thrane are more in favor of the theocracy, but there is a strong loyalist movement in opposition to the theocracy.

Heck, even THrane, as a nation, has a proven history of altruistic behavior.

edit: forgot to mention, Bel Shalor isn't a normal demon. The overlords are really more like demonic gods. The fact that the Silver Flame continues to hold Bel Shalor imprisoned is a direct testament to the genuine faith, optimism and altruism of the faithful.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

to quote Keith Baker in a Dragonmark article about Thrane, "The corruption is often blown out of proportion, when a) the CotSF isn’t supposed to have MORE corruption than any other faith in Eberron, it’s simply that there IS corruption even in this altruistic institution; and b) the majority of that corruption is based in Breland. "

 

[Staffan]

I think the perception of Silver Flame corruption is blown out of proportion, because it gets a disproportionate amount of text. That, in turn, can probably be traced to two things:

1. The exceptions usually get more screen time, because they stand out.

2. "Corrupt church" is a good trope, and the Silver Flame is the obvious place to put something like that. The Sovereign Host is too decentralized to work well (there's not that much of a hierarchy to climb), and other religions are either too small (Path of Light), too distant (Undying Court), or evil to begin with (Blood of Vol).

That said, one of the novels had an example of a Sovereign Host temple where the chief priest interpreted the Sovereigns as draconic gods, and in order to emulate them he was focusing on amassing treasure. That's a different kind of corruption, for a different religion.

When I get back to running Eberron some day, I'll have most followers of the Flame (mostly outside Thrane, but significant numbers inside as well) believe that taking over Thrane was a bad idea, because doing so gives the Thrane clergy divided loyalties - they will have to balance the statecraft of ruling Thrane with seeing to their subjects' spiritual well-being. And statecraft can be a dirty business, not always well-suited to the clergy of a Lawful Good faith. This is something that will lead to corruption when high-ups order dirty deeds done in the name of the Nation, and then use their spiritual influence to silence criticism in the name of the Faith. This is something we see in real-world politics as well - you'll have members of the opposition party denounce the practices of the government as immoral right up until they take power themselves, and continue those practices, with most of those who formerly criticized the practices now enthusiastically supporting them. (I'm trying not to name names here, because this is not the politics forum).

Hmm. That would be a pretty cool campaign premise - the PCs being a group of agents of the Church/State, mostly getting beneficial missions, but occasionally having more nefarious leaders sending them to do more questionable deeds.

 

[Krakenspire]

to quote Keith Baker in a Dragonmark article about Thrane, "The corruption is often blown out of proportion, when a) the CotSF isn’t supposed to have MORE corruption than any other faith in Eberron, it’s simply that there IS corruption even in this altruistic institution; and b) the majority of that corruption is based in Breland. "

It's to bad Keith has nothing to do with Eberron anymore. I read his blog and its obvious the world has grown away from what he intended. In particular the Silver Flame and the fact that archery was supposed to be the weapon of choice for its priests.

However as Keith has nothing to do with the world any more the Silver Flame has grown away from the original intention and is more corrupt than what it was perhaps supposed to be. Read the 3.5 supplement "Forge of War" and you will see just how bad they were during the last war. In particular Valin Field and the demonic massacre and rituals performed there, all caused by followers of the Flame. During the entire last war hard-liners kept Thrane in the war and fought hard to keep the battles going to "cover Khorvair in silver fire".

 

[Staffan]

It's to bad Keith has nothing to do with Eberron anymore. I read his blog and its obvious the world has grown away from what he intended. In particular the Silver Flame and the fact that archery was supposed to be the weapon of choice for its priests.

That's a consequence of 3.5e's rules combined with Eberronian metaphysics.

The primary foe of the Silver Flame are the native fiends of Eberron - the rakshasa. 3.5e rakshasa, have DR 15/good and piercing. Since you need piercing weapons to fight them, the longbow is a natural choice. But there's nothing about the longbow other than that that makes it associated with the Flame.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Wow. Not only do I have no respect for your "who cares what the setting's creator thinks" attitude, but you didn't even respond in any way to the other points.
Done.