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D&D 5E To fudge or not to fudge: that is the question

Do you fudge?


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Still pulls the rug out from under me because my abilities cannot work consistently in a world that isn't fixed. Until I actually "encounter" something (observe it, witness it, am told sufficient detail about it, etc.), whether it's fixed or not doesn't matter. But once I have encountered something, e.g. a monster in a fight, a world that retcons at any and every instance where the DM isn't pleased with the results--whether that's every fight or one in a thousand--my abilities, my choices, my results are no longer in any meaningful way under my control. The DM is deciding how things work. Sure, sometimes, even most of the time, they decide that the way I think they work is the way they should work. But any number of times where they don't work that way destroys the whole thing, because, as I've said repeatedly, it makes YOU--the DM--the one who's REALLY in control of everything, even what my character can accomplish. YOU decide. YOU dictate. YOU control. I have no control, except the allowance you oh-so-graciously grant me, except when it doesn't please you to do so. That you are a benevolent dictator doesn't mean you aren't a dictator, one who tells what is.

That's just a bit over dramatic. A few instances in a two year period is not going to have any meaningful impact on your choices.

Oh come off it. Really? I was saying it was a problem that you use that to argue your point. Not that player enjoyment is a bad thing. Now I'm starting to wonder if you're actually arguing in good faith.

You weren't clear. I disagree with your clarification as well. Arguing player enjoyment as the reason is also not a problem.


Oh? Then how on earth can you ever enjoy the game, once you've read the DMG? You've seen the stats of dozens, hundreds, perhaps even thousands of creatures. Odds are pretty damn close to 100% that, for any given fight, you know EXACTLY how it works. Does that mean becoming a DM has "ruined forever" your ability to play? I feel bad for you if that's true, but I strongly suspect it isn't.

Strawman. Reading the DMG doesn't show me your maps to the dungeon. The stats to every monster are also variable, and I don't have them memorized.

Okay. Show me. Show me how "many"--I don't even need a majority, I don't even need a plurality. Show me ANYONE else who has their enjoyment of the game TOTALLY COMPLETELY THOROUGHLY DESTROYED by getting a map or a seeing a statblock. I look forward to it.

3 bajillion. Any other worthless questions?

The fact is that knowledge of that sort ruins enjoyment for many people, just as fudging, if known, would ruin enjoyment for many people. How come only one of us is willing to admit that there are multiple people on the other side? Earlier you wondered if I was arguing in bad faith. Now I have to wonder the same about you.

Because for me, fudging--of ANY kind--DOES totally, completely, thoroughly destroy my enjoyment of the game. Hence why it would make me walk--if I'd ever knowingly experienced it.

And that's the key. There's no chance you'd ever know it in my game. Zero. I'm that good and it happens that rarely.
 

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EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I tend to be very open about when I fudged, and when I didn't. For example, when a cannibal was about to kill a level 1 player character, I had the cannibal try and drag his unconscious body into the jungle instead. This gave the party the opportunity to catch up with the cannibal, and save their unconscious friend.

Did you roll a die to determine something, and then ignore it for determining that thing? Did you present information to the players, intending for it to be taken a particular way, only to later decide that you wanted it to be taken a completely different way?

It doesn't sound like you did--and so I wouldn't call this fudging. I would call this successful DM risk management. You foresaw that an unacceptable problem could arise IF you engaged the randomness system, so you instead chose to follow a thematically appropriate alternative. Not fudging.

I explained why I did it (I thought it as more interesting story-wise), and my players agreed with my decision. I also discussed with them how one of our fellow players had a tendency for suicidal behavior, which I tried to discourage. This sometimes meant I had to fudge a little, to prevent an outright death of his character (which has happened about 4 times in the campaign now). But I also explained to them that this did not mean that I would prevent all deaths, just the ones that felt unfair, or due to a player's clumsiness. I often try to offer an opportunity for the players to recover from a mistake, but if they mess that up too, then it really is game over.

This would bother me for a different kind of reason than most fudging. If you treat "suicidal" characters with kid gloves, you're giving them a meaningful advantage over non-suicidal players. Unless you consequently apply some other, serious but not lethal, penalty to taking such actions, you will in fact be incentivizing suicidal behavior, rather than discouraging it. I'm curious to know more details here (but as I read further it seems you've provided them).

For example, the very same player had a random encounter with 4 Aswang (vampire-like bat creatures with a stun ability). Instead of just running, he decided to fight them, which he was sure to lose. A poor decision on his part, but I can't blame him entirely for overestimating his own abilities. So I made a secret roll to see if there was a chance the local guards would be able to hear his plight. I made a listen check fair and square, and had a paladin of the local church come to his aid who succeeded on his Listen check.

It still was a pretty close battle, and both him and the paladin almost bit the dust. But they were victorious in the end, and heavily wounded. I was being pretty lenient by having the paladin show up. While it made sense story-wise, and considering how close he was to a church, it still was a case where I fudged things a bit more in his favor. I figured this was also an excellent opportunity for me to introduce a new npc, which would shine a more positive light on an organization that the players disliked.

...that's...not fudging, nor is it just making things fail to kill someone behaving suicidally. You managed risk, and quite wisely, I'd say. You saw that the situation, if not altered in any way, would result in an undesirable consequence. So you looked for a logical, thematically appropriate modification. In this case, whether or not allies would join the fight. You used random rolling to determine it, and did so "fair and square" (meaning, I presume, that you didn't fudge it). You then ran the combat as normal, but with an NPC ally helping the PC. I don't see where you ignored dice after employing them, nor where you gave or implied (partial) information and then contradicted it later.

In fact, literally everything you've done her sounds, to me, like exceptionally good DMing, without even the faintest trace of "fudging."

I discussed this and the other example with my players a few weeks ago, and we talked at great length about when it was alright to fudge, and when it wasn't. I explained how I always fudged in their favor, to maximize fun, and never in the favor of the villains.

So...since I seem to be not at all thinking "fudging" means the same thing you do, how do you define it?

I define it as rolling for something, and then deciding after the roll that no, you won't use the roll, because the rolled result isn't what you want; or, alternatively, as providing information (whole or incomplete) that the players can and should act on if they're playing intelligently, and then later contradicting that information without giving the players any opportunity to correct their now-mistaken understanding.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
3 bajillion. Any other worthless questions?

Can you argue without being rude? I mean, I already know the answer. Just wondering what you'll say.

The fact is that knowledge of that sort ruins enjoyment for many people, just as fudging, if known, would ruin enjoyment for many people. How come only one of us is willing to admit that there are multiple people on the other side? Earlier you wondered if I was arguing in bad faith. Now I have to wonder the same about you.

Because we've got ample evidence of the one, and you making a positive existence claim I've never seen anyone else make before about the other. Burden of proof rests on you to back up a positive existence claim, not on me, when my positive existence claim has already been supported by, what, three different threads, two of which are polls? Even the horribleterrible forum polls are enough to demonstrate "at least a handful of people." (Well, assuming people aren't making sockpuppets just to vote. But I'm not inclined to assume that.)

And that's the key. There's no chance you'd ever know it in my game. Zero. I'm that good and it happens that rarely.

What if I asked, point-blank?

Because I might. Would you lie to me?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Can you argue without being rude? I mean, I already know the answer. Just wondering what you'll say.

Sure. I will if you will. It was rude to demand an answer to an absurd question in the manner you posted it.

Because we've got ample evidence of the one, and you making a positive existence claim I've never seen anyone else make before about the other. Burden of proof rests on you to back up a positive existence claim, not on me, when my positive existence claim has already been supported by, what, three different threads, two of which are polls? Even the horribleterrible forum polls are enough to demonstrate "at least a handful of people." (Well, assuming people aren't making sockpuppets just to vote. But I'm not inclined to assume that.)

You've probably never seen it because you haven't looked. That and DMs generally don't hand out the maps to players unless the PCs actually have the maps.

What if I asked, point-blank?

I'd lie to you, and many years of being physically beaten when I did things wrong made me a very, very good liar. In my personal life I dislike lying unless I feel that it's necessary, but I do feel that keeping that hidden is necessary. I'm pretty much the only one in my group with the time and desire to DM, and I already listed my reasons for keeping that information secret. Those reasons would make it necessary.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Yeah, I'm done discussing this issue with you, Maxperson. I've already spoken more rudely than I should have; any more discussion will only result in something I regret.

Suffice it to say: the fact that you will outright lie to your players is a deep and fundamental part of my problem with fudging. When you must actually lie to your players...well, I believe cooperative gaming is built on trust, and lying to your players, even with the best of intentions, violates that trust.
 

Hussar

Legend
Like [MENTION=23935]Nagol[/MENTION], I used to have DM's who thought this way. And, as he rightly pointed out, this is a self correcting problem.

The funny thing [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION] is, you on one hand claim that allowing the players to know the monster's stat block will always result in less enjoyment of the game, and then claim that fudging will always increase the enjoyment of the game. This is why you're getting so much pushback. People in this thread have told you directly that fudging in the game decreases their enjoyment. Instead of accepting that, you claim that you are so good at lying that we'd never know and we'd be happier for it.

IOW, you apparently know better what would make me happier at the table and then try to cover over your personal preferences by claiming "lots of people" feel the way you do. 20% of respondents in this thread say they never fudge, presumably because they don't like it. That's one in five. Meaning that at least one of your players hates the fact that you fudge but, probably doesn't make an issue out of it because it's not worth it. Or, to put it another way, your fudging is likely harming the enjoyment of at least one of your players.

Some of us have zero problems with TPK's. That's fantastic and memorable. The DM saving me is neither.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Yeah, I'm done discussing this issue with you, Maxperson. I've already spoken more rudely than I should have; any more discussion will only result in something I regret.

Suffice it to say: the fact that you will outright lie to your players is a deep and fundamental part of my problem with fudging. When you must actually lie to your players...well, I believe cooperative gaming is built on trust, and lying to your players, even with the best of intentions, violates that trust.

I haven't lied to them. They haven't asked. ;)

I said I would lie to you, because you seem to have some fundamentally deep distrust for DMs and would ask me.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
The funny thing [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION] is, you on one hand claim that allowing the players to know the monster's stat block will always result in less enjoyment of the game, and then claim that fudging will always increase the enjoyment of the game.

That's a misrepresentation of what I said. I said there are many people for whom that knowledge would result in less enjoyment. Not that it always would do so.

People in this thread have told you directly that fudging in the game decreases their enjoyment. Instead of accepting that, you claim that you are so good at lying that we'd never know and we'd be happier for it.

Another misrepresentation. Two for two on that score. I never failed to accept their claim. I said it was predicated on their knowing that it was happening and they couldn't in my game. Failure to know = failure to have enjoyment decreased by it. Anyone saying otherwise is lying.

IOW, you apparently know better what would make me happier at the table

This is a Strawman for the reasons stated above.

20% of respondents in this thread say they never fudge, presumably because they don't like it. That's one in five. Meaning that at least one of your players hates the fact that you fudge but, probably doesn't make an issue out of it because it's not worth it.

You don't know how statistics works, do you. I could have 20 (80%) people at my table that all love it, and you could have a full table of 5 (20%) who hate it. You don't know my table.

Or, to put it another way, your fudging is likely harming the enjoyment of at least one of your players.

That's impossible. Even if they all hated it, and they don't because I game with like minded players, they don't know about it so there is no harm being done.
 

Hussar

Legend
That's a misrepresentation of what I said. I said there are many people for whom that knowledge would result in less enjoyment. Not that it always would do so.

Define many. And, if many people knowing that you are lying to them would decrease their enjoyment, perhaps the solution would be to not lie to them?

Another misrepresentation. Two for two on that score. I never failed to accept their claim. I said it was predicated on their knowing that it was happening and they couldn't in my game. Failure to know = failure to have enjoyment decreased by it. Anyone saying otherwise is lying.

Actually that's not true. I could enjoy failure, for example. Or, at least, failing would not negatively impact my enjoyment. You have removed the option of failure, thus, removed one avenue of my enjoyment of the game. Even though I don't know you've done that, you've still made the game less enjoyable for me.

This is a Strawman for the reasons stated above.



You don't know how statistics works, do you. I could have 20 (80%) people at my table that all love it, and you could have a full table of 5 (20%) who hate it. You don't know my table.

That's true. However, it's far, far more likely that your table of 20 has at least 4 people who hate it. After all, your table is built, at least in part, in hiding things from the other players. How would you know?

That's impossible. Even if they all hated it, and they don't because I game with like minded players, they don't know about it so there is no harm being done.

Yeah, we're done here. If you aren't even willing to concede the possibility that fudging can actively harm enjoyment then we really have nothing left to talk about.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Define many. And, if many people knowing that you are lying to them would decrease their enjoyment, perhaps the solution would be to not lie to them?

man·y
ˈmenē
determiner, pronoun, & adjective
1. a large number of.
"many people agreed with her"
synonyms: numerous, a great/good deal of, a lot of, plenty of, countless, innumerable, scores of, crowds of, droves of, an army of, a horde of, a multitude of, a multiplicity of, multitudinous, multiple, untold

No. The solution is for them to not play in my game. I have a very limited number of spots. I can and have filled them with people who have a similar outlook on playing. I don't need to put people in my game who hate fudging and they can find others like them to play with and so it won't be an issue.

Actually that's not true. I could enjoy failure, for example. Or, at least, failing would not negatively impact my enjoyment.

You would still know failure, even in fights where I fudge. I never, ever fudge in order to make the PCs win. I only even up the odds a bit and put things back inside the acceptable range of randomness.

You have removed the option of failure, thus, removed one avenue of my enjoyment of the game. Even though I don't know you've done that, you've still made the game less enjoyable for me.

No I haven't.

That's true. However, it's far, far more likely that your table of 20 has at least 4 people who hate it. After all, your table is built, at least in part, in hiding things from the other players. How would you know?

I know my players well. The newest player has been playing in my game for 3 years. The oldest has been gaming with me since 1984. The rest fall in-between.

Yeah, we're done here. If you aren't even willing to concede the possibility that fudging can actively harm enjoyment then we really have nothing left to talk about.

I never said it couldn't harm enjoyment. I said it can't harm enjoyment if the player doesn't know. That's a fact. If someone doesn't know, then the game is perceived no differently by that person than if no fudging happened. Therefore, his enjoyment cannot have been harmed.
 

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