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Failing Forward

How do you feel about Fail Forward mechanics?

  • I like Fail Forward

    Votes: 74 46.8%
  • I dislike Fail Forward

    Votes: 26 16.5%
  • I do not care one way or the other

    Votes: 9 5.7%
  • I like it but only in certain situations

    Votes: 49 31.0%

Although in your example the PC finds himself in the same circumstance, it is no the same thing. In one recounting, the PC fared well at his task to be blindsided by sheer bad luck that can strike any time anywhere in that game. In the other recounting, the PC was spotted because insufficient care was given to making noise (if everyone can clearly hear it within 300', he must be using a jackhammer on those pitons!).

But if you don't know how the DM came to that conclusion, it is irrelevant.

Having said that, I think one of the concerns that people have is how much control they want the DM to have in those decisions. Regardless of whether the end result is the same, and the story is equally exciting, something about human nature doesn't want the bad stuff to be the result of a conscious decision by another human being, even the DM. If the dice say it's so, they are OK with it. But for whatever reason, a lot of us have difficulty accepting the same bad stuff from a person.

So a part of this continuum is the comfort and level of trust that the players have in their DM.

Ilbranteloth
 

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In an earlier post you (or whoever first) outlined that they had to get the rod to find the pudding, and the mace to kill the monster (Jell-o? I don't remember which dessert was involved).
No.
[MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] introduced the example with the pudding and the rod. In his (and others') discussion of that example it has been clear that losing the rod creates a choice: go on without it but have a less certain means of finding the pudding; or try to recover the rod from the ravine into which it has fallen.

The mace example is mine. It is from an episode of actual play. I have described it several times upthread, including in a very recent post, so I won't reiterate it. But the mace is not needed to kill any monster.

the group might have a specific goal - get the pudding. In the process of searching for the mace in the tower, they learn of a potential cookie in another location.
This is not how the scene-framing style of play generally associated with paradigmatic "fail forward" techniques works. The players don't follow the GM's cookies. Rather, the players - via the build and play of their PCs - set "cookies" for the GM. Eg the mace became relevant in my BW game because one of the players added backstory and a goal to his PC.

when exploring a world, you'll come across all sorts of things
"Fail forward" is a technique that is generally an alternative to "exploring a world". The GM authors backstory in response to adjudicating checks, not as an input into that adjudication.

If everything that the PCs do lead eventually lead them to the pudding, and you don't introduce any elements that would give them alternative options for their adventuring fun for the day, then it's just a railroad.
This makes me feel that you are not really following the discussion of how "fail forward" techniques work. If everything the PCs do is aimed at getting the pudding, it does not follow that they will find it. Because they may fail. (As the PCs in my BW game initially failed to find the mace.)

If the PCs decide to pursue something else, that is there prerogative. (The 5 PCs in my BW game each have 3 Beliefs, although some of those beliefs overlap in content so that is not literally 15 possible goals in play, but its certainly more than 1.) But that is up to the players, not the GM. If the PCs pursue something else, then the GM has to adjudicate those new action resolutions. (That is actually how the mace became relevant in my BW game - as I've explained, that "alternative option" was introduced by the players, not by the GM.)

if everything was randomly determined, and particularly if the location of a given object, person, etc. is partially dependent upon the success or failure of a roll, how can you develop a campaign world with depth and consistency if you as the DM don't know stuff about it beforehand?

<snip>

once those NPCs have been met, they exist. If they run into them again, there needs to be consistency. I guess if you're just keeping track of things as you build it you'll end up in the same place, but I get the feeling that more involved, deeper plots are difficult to pull together in that approach.
Through a combination of note-taking and memory. Writing everything in advance doesn't per se increase its depth, nor ensure consistency.

I've got plenty of actual play threads, some of which I've linked to upthread. Here's another. They illustrate how the technique works.

Isn't that kind of the job of the DM? I mean, after they survive a combat, there's something else presenting a challenge, twist, or something, unless they've actually made it to their goal?
If the check succeeds, then the goal/intention that motivated the check has been achieved. If the new challenge/complication invalidates or reverses that particular achievement, I regard that as rendering the players' resource expenditure pointless.

there are a lot of potential checks that could be made. A climb check when hammering in each piton, then a climb check to move the next 30' or so, and another for the next piton. In addition, checking against the passive perception each time a piton is hammered in, although there is no DC to check passive perception against, so it's either an active check, or the hero must roll a stealth check. He also may need to roll a stealth check while climbing to the next location where he'll hammer in a piton.

There are a lot of potential checks. Oh, yeah, and a bunch of fate checks to see if he pulls loose some rocks, or disturbs a nest full of birds, or a piton breaks free, or the rope gets snagged, etc.

So somewhere in here there is a sort of sweet spot where the right number and the right types of skill and event checks occur, combined with the right amount of narrative developed from the results of the skill checks.

Climbing several hundred feet 30' skill check at a time would get very, very long. But a single check isn't sufficient either.
Why not?
 

Can you see that having a game where the skills of the players do not influence the probabilities of unrelated things might be important for some people just because they assure you that this is the case, even if it doesn't work for you?
Yes, I can absolutely see that, and I even share the outlook, but you appear to have missed my point completely.

The point I was trying to make is that these two systems are exactly equivalent, and the chance of the mace being there to be found is affected by the character skill in neither of them.

If character skill added onto the chance of the mace being in the tower to be found in system 1, then the rolls become (1) d10+skill for 8+ for a thorough search, as before, and (2) d10+skill for 6+ for the mace to be there - not as before. The percentile system this equates to is not the same as in my original example - it is now a complex scheme like this:

- PC skill = 0, chance to find = 15% (same as before).
- PC skill = 1, chance to find = 24% (compared with 20% before).
- PC skill = 2, chance to find = 35% (compared to 25% before).
- PC skill = 3, chance to find = 48% (compared to 30% before).
- PC skill = 4, chance to find = 63% (compared to 35% before).
- PC skill = 5, chance to find = 80% (compared to 40% before).

The chance to find the mace now follows a squared relation to the character's skill, instead of a linear one. The linear realtion between the character's skill and the chance to find the mace actually implies that the PC's skill does not affect the chance that the mace is there to be found - quite the opposite of what you seem to be claiming.

In other words, I am not saying that you should find "system 2" to be unobjectionable despite it having a feature you (understandably) don't like - I am saying that you should find it unobjectionable precisely because it does not have that feature.

I am not arguing with your tastes - which are incontestable in any case - I am arguing with your maths.

And yes "for me" the DM knowing is a massive advantage.
OK - that is a very different issue. Do you have any practical advantage that you see for the GM knowing, or do you just prefer to know, as a GM?
 

I guess you could say my approach is to write a background story - there is a rough timeline of 'planned' events typically in a given region. I might have other things in play on a larger scale. They don't have to be heavily details, and the timeline can easily change, especially based on what the PCs do. Based on your description, you have some of this already, a few maps, some stat blocks, etc. I guess the major difference is that I also have some active stories. If you're familiar with FR publications, this would be the 'current clack' section. Other rumors and activities may be developed on the fly.

I guess that the reality is that there is a continuum of prepared and random/on-the-fly things all of the time. A published adventure tends to lean heavily on the pre-planned. At the very least there's an intended end-game. I'm comfortable more in the middle. I like to think through things a bit more (duh) so I have a lot of semi-pre-planned activities going on in my head, and sometimes on (digital) paper to give me a head start in the event that the PCs intersect that story. After each session I typically have a bunch of ideas in reaction to the session. As that percolates over the week it tends to coalesce into a sort of 'prep' for the upcoming session, although it may never end up written down.

But I always have a pretty good idea of the various directions things can go if they stick with the current goal. If they change their goal (which they have done quite frequently), then it gets interesting. But that's also why I have a good idea of most of what's going on in the background so I can react quickly and consistently.

Ilbranteloth

First off, the way you've described your pre-campaign setup is similar to mine. I think it's important for the characters to have a reasonably clear picture of how their characters are "framed" in the fiction at the get go. Some people advocate a 100% "No Myth" approach (meaning the absolute bare minimum of backstory), but I've found that to frame relevant conflicts and scenes, I have to have a reasonably good grasp of what's happening in the game world.

I agree that it's important to have a "semi-breathing" world, where there are NPCs, organizations, nations, etc. that have agendas and will be taking actions in the background whether the PCs adapt to them or not. What shouldn't happen (at least in my opinion), is there shouldn't be some final encounter, some end game or plot development that WILL INEVITABLY HAPPEN, no matter what.

My GM-ing took a dramatic leap forward when my focus became about engaging the PCs with what was interesting to the players. To that end, scene frames, situations and NPC motivations have to remain adaptable and fluid. It was about shifting gears and changing directions based on what you see at the table.

What I don't understand is, if everything was randomly determined, and particularly if the location of a given object, person, etc. is partially dependent upon the success or failure of a roll, how can you develop a campaign world with depth and consistency if you as the DM don't know stuff about it beforehand? I have potential antagonists going about their plans whether the PCs intervene or not. Even if they don't directly engage with them, their actions can still have an impact.

So I guess this is where it starts to lose me. Depending on the circumstance, I'd agree, not everything is determined ahead of time. There are some random events, encounters, NPCs, etc. I'm OK with that as part of the basic framework of the world. But I also view it as a living, breathing world that needs consistency. When you start with a clean slate, never adventured in the world before. Fair enough. But once those NPCs have been met, they exist. If they run into them again, there needs to be consistency. I guess if you're just keeping track of things as you build it you'll end up in the same place, but I get the feeling that more involved, deeper plots are difficult to pull together in that approach.

I think I understand why you're getting hung up on this point, but the trick to remember is, as a GM you're not authoring "in the moment" all the time. There are absolutely moments where your pre-authored fiction can and should hold true. Sometimes the mace isn't there, and it doesn't matter what the PCs do, or say, or roll on the dice, they ain't gettin' that mace in Location X.

BUT --- and this is the big "but" --- as a GM, you should always be asking yourself, "Is that REALLY the case? Does the game get any better (or worse) if I decide right now, in the moment, that in fact the mace is there? And that the PCs will find it?"

If that's the case, don't even make them roll for it. There's no roll to be made. Assuming the PCs declare that they make any kind of reasonable search of the area to find the mace, they find it. This is classic "Say yes or roll the dice." Well, we just said yes --- the mace is there. Now what happens?

Or if they do roll for it, decide right then and there that they will find SOMETHING, even if the check result says "failure." This is the idea behind "fail forward." Sometimes, the PC's success is guaranteed, but I still make them roll the check to see how long it takes, the degree of success (which can lead to more interesting findings), and whether anything in the scene around them reacts to it.

To me the whole "Climbing Mount Pudding" example is a classic case of process sim run amok. If it's so dang important for the PCs to make it to the top of Mount Pudding, then scene frame it such that the PCs make it to Mount Pudding, but use the climb checks to represent some other variable other than the success of the climb.

Oh sure, if you change your pre-authored fiction, you're probably going to have to change other stuff in the fiction too, and maybe even do a mild ret-con (though in my experience, even if it's a semi-obvious ret-con to the players, most of the time they don't care and just roll with it). But if changing your pre-authored fiction increases the dramatic tension, pushes narrative momentum, and gives the PCs a chance to really dig in further to their character goals.......isn't that BETTER?

(Obviously the hardcore "simulationists" will disagree, but frankly I don't care. In my experience the only time "simulationism" works in the first place is if the players are heavily invested in their PCs with goals, motivations, and back stories . . . in which case, why would I purposefully use heavy process sim / pre-authoring to stunt their ability to engage with what they want?)
 
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Do you have any practical advantage that you see for the GM knowing, or do you just prefer to know, as a GM?

The practical advantage is that it makes it easier for the GM to project the fiction backwards and forwards. The GM doesn't have to do the mental "hurdling" to figure out what happens if the fiction changes in the moment.

I think GMs get scared that "changing the fiction in the moment" somehow lessens the scene or impact for the players, or cheapens the value of play.

95+ percent of the time this has NEVER been the case in my experience.
 

Yes, I can absolutely see that, and I even share the outlook, but you appear to have missed my point completely.

The point I was trying to make is that these two systems are exactly equivalent, and the chance of the mace being there to be found is affected by the character skill in neither of them.

If character skill added onto the chance of the mace being in the tower to be found in system 1, then the rolls become (1) d10+skill for 8+ for a thorough search, as before, and (2) d10+skill for 6+ for the mace to be there - not as before. The percentile system this equates to is not the same as in my original example - it is now a complex scheme like this:

- PC skill = 0, chance to find = 15% (same as before).
- PC skill = 1, chance to find = 24% (compared with 20% before).
- PC skill = 2, chance to find = 35% (compared to 25% before).
- PC skill = 3, chance to find = 48% (compared to 30% before).
- PC skill = 4, chance to find = 63% (compared to 35% before).
- PC skill = 5, chance to find = 80% (compared to 40% before).

The chance to find the mace now follows a squared relation to the character's skill, instead of a linear one. The linear realtion between the character's skill and the chance to find the mace actually implies that the PC's skill does not affect the chance that the mace is there to be found - quite the opposite of what you seem to be claiming.

In other words, I am not saying that you should find "system 2" to be unobjectionable despite it having a feature you (understandably) don't like - I am saying that you should find it unobjectionable precisely because it does not have that feature.

I am not arguing with your tastes - which are incontestable in any case - I am arguing with your maths.

The thing I have a problem with is the single roll that is tied to the characters stats or skills and decides if the mace is there in the first place.
Pass is mace is found.
fail is mace is not found and mace is not there.
I honestly prefer is the mace there (yes or no). search roll informs how long it takes to determine this.

OK - that is a very different issue. Do you have any practical advantage that you see for the GM knowing, or do you just prefer to know, as a GM?

Actually I prefer the DM to know "when I am a player". The focus on "telling a story" for me needs to be balanced with playing a game.
I'm not so interested in telling the story of how how my character solved the mystery of the haunted castle, as I am of solving the mystery as both a player and a character.
I want there to be mysteries that involve thinking and problem solving to resolve. When the target is continually shifting to always be in your cross hairs, it's just not as challenging.
It's like you are shooting 5 arrows at the wall and then the DM goes up and draws circles around the arrows and says "Well done you hit every target".

I will try and explain this by using an example.

Players hunting down his brother who is possessed.

Players are looking for item - fail forward discover brother has always been evil and invited possession. (for some reason failing at an unrelated skill has turned the brother bad)

My preferred way is that the DM knows that the brother invited the possession, but the players and the characters do not. Over the coarse of the adventure they discover this information slowly, 1 hint at a time, as they come to find more clues. When they track down the brother they may or may not know the truth. They may have not found enough information and think they are trying to "save" the brother, not realising he is beyond saving.

Additionally Discovering the truth about the brother is not a fail, finding out the clues and information is a reward for doing well.

This preference of mine is just that. If I go to a game club and there is a game, I will play what is on offer. If there are 2 games I will go with the one closer to my preferences. So if one game is high improve/fail forward, and the other is a preset world (not an AP) then I am more likely to go with the preset world.
 

The same goes for BBEG, McGuffin etc.

Like anything else - you make it up as is needed, and/or as seems appropriate, as the game unfolds.

And apropos of this:

If the check had succeeded, the PCs would have found the mace they were looking for.

The backstory about the brother would still have been up for grabs: you can't establish an ingame fact about the brother via a successful Scavenging check. It would require a successful Balrog-wise or Great Masters-wise or Brothers-wise check, or something along those lines.

EDIT: Another example of NPC backstory authoring from my BW game.

As I set out in this post, the PCs in my BW game think they have uncovered a death cult priest. And as far as my pre-prep is concerned, I am inclined to think that they have also. (I had written up the death cult priest one day catching the train to work.)

But nothing definitive about the status of the priest has been established in play, and so the whole thing is still up for grabs. If the accused priest's champion wins the trial by combat, I might even decide that her story is true!

These things don't need to be decided in advance.

I understand how this works in this style of games then, thanks.
 

Players are looking for item - fail forward discover brother has always been evil and invited possession. (for some reason failing at an unrelated skill has turned the brother bad)

From what has been posted, I gathered that the brother was evil all along. I think the fail forward was the information that was unrelated to the skill roll showing up.
 

Sure, but having the complication trigger off of a success means the player who invested resources in something so as to not have problems accomplishing something only to have problems accomplishing something too well (or whatever).

You have complications trigger off failure, but I don't think anyone is saying that success will trigger complications, but complications will happen.
There will be guards at the top of the wall independent of if you succeed or fail, so if you successfully climb the next thing in your way will be that there are guards on the wall. If you fail to climb the guard will still be there and when you do get to the top of the wall you will still need to deal with them, it just that you will have other things in the way before getting to the guards.

It really depends on how much you include in a skill check.
1 only include the act of climbing (yes or no did you get to the top)
2 include how long it takes to get to the top/equipment failure.
3 include time/equipment/ guards noticing/ does it rain.
4 includes leaving you house buying all the equipment needed climbing the wall and over powering the guards at the top.
5 includes all of the above and climbing the inner wall of the fort as well.
6 includes all of the about and over powering the guard to get to the target of the assassin (move to final boss battle).


you and Ilbranteloth are at different points on the "how much to include in one check" scale.
 

From what has been posted, I gathered that the brother was evil all along. I think the fail forward was the information that was unrelated to the skill roll showing up.

No, the brother was possessed, that he had been evil before the possession was only determined by the fail forward (and the finding of the black arrows).
If the arrows hadn't been found then the brother being just possessed, or possessed and evil before that happened, or any thing else is up for grabs.

From pemerton post 596.

If the check had succeeded, the PCs would have found the mace they were looking for.

The backstory about the brother would still have been up for grabs: you can't establish an ingame fact about the brother via a successful Scavenging check. It would require a successful Balrog-wise or Great Masters-wise or Brothers-wise check, or something along those lines.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?473785-Failing-Forward/page60#ixzz3xYP5Fwel
 

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