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D&D 5E I'm Not Sure We Need a Warlord - Please put down that rotten egg.

Most of the elements that made the 4e Warlords niche have either been passed off to other classes or don't really need to be in 5e.
That's the main issue. You can't make a warlord, only sub-warlords.

It's like saying you don't need a fighter because valor war clerics, bards, rangers, paladins, barbarians, and bladesingers exist.
What more do fighters need besides armor, fighting style, and multi-attack? Which already exist in a bunch of other classes.


If you could combine levels of mastermind, purple dragon knight, bardic inspiration (without spells), and battlemaster, (for example) we could have a full warlord. But right now, it doesn't exsist.
 

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Granting at will attacks with healing and other support abilities on top of that by default can't be balanced. It worked in 4E becuase of powers and at will attacks were generally weaker than say at will let alone encounter powers (excluding splat book material and essential classes).
5e classes single attack are generally weaker then their at-will (multi-attack) and short rest (action surge) or daily (spells) abilities too. At least past level 5.

Except the rogue.

A clerics damage for example with weapons is usually a bit meh although they get an extra dice of damage at level 8. A warlord would lack htheir spells but some classes like the Barbarian and maybe hunter ranger will be broken with a warlord in the party especially if it can grant multiple attacks and heal.
I haven't seen a warlord that granted multiple attacks.

It gets even worse if feats are used with the GWM, sharpshooter and the healer feat in particular. Assuming the warlord has a decent amount of healing (Druid levels maybe not life cleric levels), takes healer feat and grants attacks to allies is an out right cleric replacement on steroids. And clerics do not exactly suck in 5E.
Most warlords i've seen have ranger or paladin level healing, not druid level. Maybe the sub-class has druid level.

But yes, a warlord should be able to replace, but not surpass the cleric.

I have seen Battlemaster fighters in action (its the best fighter across all levels IMHO beaten at the highest level by the EK and that is a maybe). Even that Noble class that went up on EN5sider was a little crazy if you built your party around it. Most of the classes are good at something though but even if you got a warlord that was right in some parties it would be broken as hell and in other parties somewhat useless.
That already happens.

2 fighters with sharpshooter and crossbow expertise, + sorcerer with twin haste + sorcerer with twin greater invisibility + bard with bless.

Plenty other party combo's too. Such as 2 rogues and warlorks/clerics spamming dissonant whispers and command.
 

5e classes single attack are generally weaker then their at-will (multi-attack) and short rest (action surge) or daily (spells) abilities too. At least past level 5.

Except the rogue.

I haven't seen a warlord that granted multiple attacks.

Most warlords i've seen have ranger or paladin level healing, not druid level. Maybe the sub-class has druid level.

But yes, a warlord should be able to replace, but not surpass the cleric.

That already happens.

2 fighters with sharpshooter and crossbow expertise, + sorcerer with twin haste + sorcerer with twin greater invisibility + bard with bless.

Plenty other party combo's too. Such as 2 rogues and warlorks/clerics spamming dissonant whispers and command.

Dissonant whispers is not reliable and is a daily effect. Twinned haste is otherwise limited and is a daily power.

I have actually seen buff sorcerers and I was one of the 1st to say bless was broken/OP almost a year and a half ago. Difference is now I think more people are seeing it.
 

An all martial party is totally viable.

Says the Intellect Devourer hiding in the corner :-)

But seriously, I am curious for the general question:
How does an all-martial party survive in a "Fantastic Fantasy World"?
I think the Warlord question always combines with the "Martials in a Magical World" question.

How does a martial party reach a flying castle without Fly? How does a martial party escape an Earthquake'd dungeon without Teleport? What happens when that rogue fails his trap detect against a Symbol of Polymorph? How does the ranger cross the bridge after a Dragonborne spits acid onto the ropes? Even in 3.0 we had lowbie wizards summoning whales to drop on enemies.

I'd like to see martial parties have buit-in solutions against these fantastic threats WITHOUT DM-Fiat. Warlord martial healing would help in combat situations. But that is just one piece of the "Martials in a Magical World" issue.

We always see how full-casters can break published adventures, while the martials are dumpster-diving to find food for the night. Martials need non-magical solutions to avoid succumbing to Murder-Hoboism overnight.

For the above problems? Monks get a natural class feature to meditate and then walk on clouds to reach the Flying Castle. Rogues get a "Reflect Magic" feature to counteract SoD traps. The Fighter is strong enough to carve his way out of being buried alive. The Ranger uses his environment knowledge to strike the ground and cause a rocky ledge to collapse and form a natural bridge. And the Barbarian, well, dropping a whale on him just makes him smell like fish.

So yes. IMO the martial buffer/healer class is needed in 5e. And other martials need mechanics to fight against the Fantastic World & Magical Threats around them.

That's why a Warlord is needed.
 

5e classes single attack are generally weaker then their at-will (multi-attack) and short rest (action surge) or daily (spells) abilities too. At least past level 5.

Except the rogue.
Yep, 5e's design philosophy requires a little more thought & detail when it comes to how class features interact. One of the more practical reasons for not adding classes. Any new class that's not very basic in abilities (not just another DPR-focused class, for instance) is going to run up against that difficulty in a way that's a lot more obvious, but no more serious, than it was for classes that were developed or or less simultaneously and behind the scenes.

I thought I had. :(. Most of the elements that made the 4e Warlords niche have either been passed off to other classes or don't really need to be in 5e.
Even if both of those were true, they wouldn't mean there's no 'need' for the Warlord in the game, just that there's no absolute need for one with in a given party (which is fine, and how it should be for every class: choice is a good thing).

First of all, the Warlord didn't have a protected 'niche' the way an old-school Cleric was a band-aid or a 3.0 Thief was the only class with the Trapfinding feature. It just had a formal Role, one that it was never alone in being able to fill.

Secondly, spreading a concept over several classes, while also having a single class or sub-class that can more neatly and fully cover that concept, is SOP for 5e. You can play a Fighter/Cleric or a Fighter with the Acolyte background - but you can also cut to the chase and play a Paladin. You can play any class with Magic Adept and a background like Sage, or an Eldtrich Knight or Arcane Trickster, but you can also play an actual Wizard. Being able to half-posteriorly cobble together a baroque build that suggests a concept doesn't mean there's no need for a class that embodies it.

Tactical movement forex. In 4e, that's a major element.
That's a little overblown, IMHO. 4e had a pendulum-swing away from the 'static combat' complaints of 3.x, and 5e swung back the other way. No bearing on whether a class concept is 'needed.' Every class in 4e had some tactical movement built into some powers and other powers that had nothing to do with tactical movement. The Warlord was no exception. Those sorts of abilities are handled differently in 5e than in 4e, not done away with.

You couldn't move-attack-move in 4e. In 5e it's pretty easy to be highly mobile on the battlefield without any help.
As it was in 4e. Every class had some tactical movement stuff, just like everyone could make a basic attack. The Warlord might grant tactical movement or basic attacks as part of his build, or not. The whole class didn't rest on either of those things.

4e had a bajillion status effects. Having a warlord that could mitigate or remove them was a big deal.
Fewer than 3.5 but more than 5e - though, really, not a lot more standard ones. The ones 5e does have can be pretty brutal, and even if they might let you save every round, a bad save can be pretty hard to make.

In combat healing is largely not required unless someone drops.
As has generally been the case since 2e. In 1e, you had to avoid letting your allies get to 0 hps because they either died or (optional 'death door' rule) would need a full week of rest to recover, no matter how much you healed them. Once that rule was dropped, the tactic of healing only dropped allies became viable. In 4e & 5e, which both used heal-from-0, it became optimal.

It's much more like Adnd where healing is done afterwards. And since everyone can burn HD on a short, you don't really even need a dedicated healer in the group. Paladin or Ranger can cover a lot of that.
Obviously, Healing Surges available after a 5 minute rest were a /lot/ more available in 4e than HD, useable after an hour-long short rest, even if they didn't also represent a far greater hp resource. Similarly, 4e and 5e both allow in-combat healing to be done while still taking a normal action, like attacking. The only way in which 5e tends to have less need for in-combat healing is to the extent that it's combats are so much quicker and easier. If you run a lot of (or even any, really) hard-deadly combats that aren't just a quick mopping-up exercise with 0 risk (either intentionally or because the encounter guidelines fail you), you'll be needing a party that can stand up dropped characters.

So what's left? If you don't need tactical movement, and you don't need in combat healing, and mitigation of status effects aren't as important, what's left?
I suppose 'need' is relative. You don't 'need' in-combat healing, but the Cleric, Bard, Druid, Paladin & Ranger all have it via spells, including Healing Word that can be used as a bonus action while attacking. You don't 'need' tactical movement, but the Rogue still gets Cunning Action, the Wizard adds Misty Step, races still get different speeds, &c. You don't 'need' to mitigate status effects but the Cleric, Bard, Druid, Paladin & Ranger still do it. So either you do need them, or 'not needing' something is no reason at all not to have it.

In some ways, 5e's less solid/more open handling of those (and other) things makes the need for a class that can model the concepts the warlord covers that much more acute. In 4e, you could play a 'tactical' character even if there were no Warlord class, because the detailed handling of a few aspects of tactics, like movement & positioning, let the player step in and provide his own, meaningful, if technically metagame, tactics that looked in-fiction enough to be satisfying. 5e doesn't currently support a that style in the narrative very well (even with the tactical module), and metagame tactics revolve around spellcasting. A warlord, at the very minimum, could add some tactical depth via more than just spellcasting choices. It could also model some of what 4e did at the gamist level of player tactical decisions at the narrative level with a more abstract modeling of the character's tactical ability.

For instance, in 4e, Tactical Presence had a mechanical effect whether the player (of any class, not just the Warlord) was applying any of his gamist 'tactical' (play) skill well (or at all), but when it came to tactical movement, the player had to make a good tactical choice about positioning. In 5e, tactical positioning could be handled more abstractly, the player could use a maneuver that just "moves an ally into a tactically advantageous position" without having to come up with such a position, himself, based on the mechanics.

I rather hope, actually, that a 5e warlord is based on the flavour- tactical/inspiring leader, but I think mechanically, you can't bring much of a 4e warlord forward into 5e.
You can't, now, you could very easily. The mechanics needn't even be all that different: most of the classes in 5e were designed with mechanics that called back earlier editions. There's only one earlier edition of the Warlord.

I'm just not sure what's needed to express the concept in 5e.
A martial class that fill the party's primary-support needs and models at least the same range of concepts the 4e Warlord did. That requires mechanics - probably a maneuver system and/or a completely novel system tightly coupled to inspiration/tactics/etc - that are customizable & flexible to a much greater degree than those of the few classes (Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian) that have non-magical sub-classes in 5e. You could just port the 4e Warlord into 5e. It wouldn't need to be as wildly versatile as 5e casters (no class does).

A good analogy might be that the Warlord needs to be to the Battlemaster what the Arcane Trickster is to the Wizard. Less (more situational) DPR, vastly more choices/resources.

Well, I'm about to test that out once my Primeval Thule campaign gets off the ground. About the only healing, outside of potions, might be a ranger since I'm not allowing any classes/races with at-will spells.
The Ranger is about the worst support-caster in 5e (fewer support spells and far fewer slots than the Druid, Bard, or Cleric, and no LoH like the Paladin), but it's still a caster, so hardly 'all-martial.'
Unless healing-potions are re-skinned as non-magical, they're pushing it, too - and if they're acceptable as non-magical healing, then a major spurious objection to the warlord restoring hps is gone, as well.

I know our current Dragonlance campaign, which has only a paladin and a ranger (out of 6 PC's) for healing has been doing fine and dandy up to 9th level now. So, I'm not really convinced that an all-martial party isn't viable.
Neither the Paladin nor Ranger are all-martial, and the Paladin is actually quite a capable healer, by itself, thanks to LoH on top of cleric-lite spells.
 
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Says the Intellect Devourer hiding in the corner :-)

But seriously, I am curious for the general question:
How does an all-martial party survive in a "Fantastic Fantasy World"?
I think the Warlord question always combines with the "Martials in a Magical World" question.

How does a martial party reach a flying castle without Fly? How does a martial party escape an Earthquake'd dungeon without Teleport? What happens when that rogue fails his trap detect against a Symbol of Polymorph? How does the ranger cross the bridge after a Dragonborne spits acid onto the ropes? Even in 3.0 we had lowbie wizards summoning whales to drop on enemies.

I'd like to see martial parties have buit-in solutions against these fantastic threats WITHOUT DM-Fiat. Warlord martial healing would help in combat situations. But that is just one piece of the "Martials in a Magical World" issue.

We always see how full-casters can break published adventures, while the martials are dumpster-diving to find food for the night. Martials need non-magical solutions to avoid succumbing to Murder-Hoboism overnight.

For the above problems? Monks get a natural class feature to meditate and then walk on clouds to reach the Flying Castle. Rogues get a "Reflect Magic" feature to counteract SoD traps. The Fighter is strong enough to carve his way out of being buried alive. The Ranger uses his environment knowledge to strike the ground and cause a rocky ledge to collapse and form a natural bridge. And the Barbarian, well, dropping a whale on him just makes him smell like fish.

So yes. IMO the martial buffer/healer class is needed in 5e. And other martials need mechanics to fight against the Fantastic World & Magical Threats around them.

That's why a Warlord is needed.

The point of playing an all (or mostly) non-caster game is that the players have to engage in the game world, rather than their character sheets, to resolve these sorts of problems. How do you get into the flying castle? Go the same route as Greek heroes and find yourself a pegasus or three. Earthquaked dungeon? Run really quickly. :D Crossing a broken bridge? Swim. Cut down a tree and make another bridge. Find a solution.

Turning martials into de facto casters is NOT the solution I want.

Tony Vargas said:
The Ranger is about the worst support-caster in 5e (fewer support spells and far fewer slots than the Druid, Bard, or Cleric, and no LoH like the Paladin), but it's still a caster, so hardly 'all-martial.'
Unless healing-potions are re-skinned as non-magical, they're pushing it, too - and if they're acceptable as non-magical healing, then a major spurious objection to the warlord restoring hps is gone, as well.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...-put-down-that-rotten-egg/page3#ixzz3xdSlYH5E

Meh, I'm not such a purist that I'm going to want a 100% non-caster group in D&D. The game has never supported that (and no, even in 4e, it didn't - you'd likely have Ritual casting to cover the holes) and if you want a 100% non-caster group, there are much, much better games for that.

But, please don't put me in the same category as those who piddle in the pool about "HP as Meat" and other ludicrous issues. I have zero problems with Warlords restoring HP's. That's not the issue. My question is that it's not really all that needed. We don't need a "leader" role in 5e because healing is pretty easy and largely unneeded in combat. You healed in combat in 4e because that's how you won the fight. If you didn't trigger healing resources within the fight, the monsters would largely win. Being able to draw on that extra pool of HP is how you win a fight in 4e. But, it's largely superfluous in 5e. It just isn't needed that often.
 

The point of playing an all (or mostly) non-caster game is that the players have to engage in the game world, rather than their character sheets, to resolve these sorts of problems.
That's the only possible point of an all-martial party? Not, say, everyone wanting to play a concept that didn't happen to call for spell-casting or other magical abilities? I've been in games where that just happened, spontaneously.

Turning martials into de facto casters is NOT the solution I want.
I don't think anyone does. It'd nice if they could be de facto competent de facto adventurers, though.
But mis-characterizing any class that has resources to manage as a "de facto caster" is just edition war nonsense. The 5e Champion & Battlemaster fighter have such abilities (Action Surge, Second Wind), and there are no complaints about them 'casting spells.' Indeed, the Fighter (EK), actually does cast spells, still with no complaints. 5e is clearly fine with all classes being de-facto, if not literal, casters.
Rather, the Warlord's abilities just have to fit within 5e's framework (which is so broad and open that anything could fit in it, really), be no more broken and imbalanced than any existing class (another bar trivially easy to clear), cover at least the range of concepts it has in the past (a little more work), and stack up adequately compared to other classes that make similar party contributions. That last is the tough one, since it requires making the Warlord significantly more capable and versatile than any class in 4e was.
That's the real stumbling block.

I'm not such a purist that I'm going to want a 100% non-caster group in D&D. The game has never supported that (and no, even in 4e, it didn't
Like I said, I've been in games that just happened to have everyone choosing a non-caster. The 4e instances went fine. Worst thing that happened was we borked a Skill Challenge that needed way too many hard Arcana checks.
Of course, before that, the policy was always simple: first to die rolls up a cleric. ;P

My question is that it's not really all that needed. We don't need a "leader" role in 5e because healing is pretty easy and largely unneeded in combat.
Then we don't need the Paladin with his lay on hands, or those 5 classes with cure wounds and/or healing word in their lists (among many other leaderish spells and features). *Poof,* they're gone. Game still OK? Nope, it's lacking, there are all these concepts you used to be able to realize in past editions that you can't anymore. "Don't need it" isn't the same as "shouldn't have it." You don't /need/ most of the classes in D&D.

You healed in combat in 4e because that's how you won the fight. If you didn't trigger healing resources within the fight, the monsters would largely win. Being able to draw on that extra pool of HP is how you win a fight in 4e. But, it's largely superfluous in 5e. It just isn't needed that often.
Neither edition was as one-note as you're making them sound. The most efficient way to use healing in 4e was to use it exclusively on dropped allies. Allies did drop (in remotely difficult fights), and heal-from-zero made healing them optimal. 5e combats (in order to get to the recommended 6-8/day) can be individually easy almost to the point of triviality, but they aren't all that way, and there's not a big difference between in-combat healing and healing when you don't have a full hour for a short rest, so 'in combat healing' really includes any series of combats spaced less than an hour apart, and, 5e is heal-from-0 by default, making that the most efficient way to do it. Not so different, at all, in that sense.
Healing resource other than HD in 5e are also a lot more important than non-surge healing was in 4e, because they add directly to the party's viability over the course of the day, they're part of the ed's 'attrition model,' and they're mostly (as spells) very flexible, adding to the whole resource-management mode of play. A party getting by on just HD is going to fall short in that model - whether that ends up game-breaking depends on the style and the details of the campaign. A 4e party could get by without a full leader by resting and spending surges after every combat and using Second Wind (including using Heal to trigger a downed ally's second wind) in combat. It wasn't optimal, but it was more nearly viable than trying to get by with just HD in 5e.

Not that healing hasn't always been an important part of D&D PCs living up to some extent to their genre inspiration. Hps (and saving throws) always vaguely modeled 'plot armor,' and restoring the former was critical to having any sense of jeopardy within a single encounter, as well as being necessary just to keep the adventure going. But starting with 3e the realities of healing resources shifted from keeping the party going through the day, to keeping it alive within a given combat. Between-combat healing became trivial through the 3.x WoCLW (& 3.5 WoLV), so spells were used for in-combat healing (when someone dropped) or, more often, general CoDzilla rampages. Aside from doing away with CoDzilla, that same dynamic was true in 4e, and is not that much less true in 5e. HD still make between-combat healing fairly plentiful and in-combat healing important, 'in combat' just applies to any series of combats with less than an hour's break.
 

The point of playing an all (or mostly) non-caster game is that the players have to engage in the game world, rather than their character sheets, to resolve these sorts of problems. How do you get into the flying castle? Go the same route as Greek heroes and find yourself a pegasus or three. Earthquaked dungeon? Run really quickly. :D Crossing a broken bridge? Swim. Cut down a tree and make another bridge. Find a solution.

Turning martials into de facto casters is NOT the solution I want.

Casters do not "engage in the game world". I understand that. Hell, I was in a 3.5 game where my wizard was going to prepare Fireball spell and the DM flat out told me "no" (would've wrecked his dragon encounter).

IMO "Low-Magic" needs buy-in from players anyway. Might as well let players build their own classes at that point: my last 4e campaign we built our own classes for the game world, and it worked.

Oh, and apologies for not replying to your OP.

I don't care for the TacticLord myself, but I'm big on the InspireLord. And I can't stop comparing it to the Alchemist class too. Both InspireLord and Alchemist are missing from 5e. I like to think they could combine under "Mundane Fighter who Uses-His-Brain in a Magical World", and would use buffs, healing, and potions to help fight.

The "Intelligent Fighter" subclass is definitely needed in 5e, especially since there's no Alchemist in core. Combine them both into a Fighter Subclass and I think a lot of Warlord fans would be happy :-)

Edit: Shortened post a bit.
 
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