What 5e got wrong

[Sacrosanct]

What I've heard from actual Pathfinder fans is not what I've heard? Sorry, no, I was telling the truth.

I'm not doubting that you heard that from some PF fans. But what you actually said was, "The highest praise I heard from PF fans was..." And clearly that's not true. Obviously not now, since a PF fan just told you otherwise in the post right above this.

Check your own biases.

Indeed. I'll also note that your "defending 5e" usually consists of "It's not awful, just meh. Could do a lot better." If that's what you consider defending, I hope you're not a defense lawyer.

For the record, I'm not saying 5e is immune to criticism. I've criticized it myself several times in the past. But it seems to be stubborn disingenuous argument to keep viewing it as just "meh" or "average at best" when the fan community reactions, official reviews, game store sales results, game store/convention tables playing it, etc all point to it being a great game--one of the best editions so far, it certainly seems. And that's something we can point to beyond just your or my anecdotal evidence. Especially when your anecdotal evidence claims are untrue, as was just proven.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

whelp, the "look at this evidence to support the validity of my opinion" phase of the thread has started.

abandon ship!

 

[Tony Vargas]

I'm not doubting that you heard that from some PF fans. But what you actually said was, "The highest praise I heard from PF fans was..." And clearly that's not true.

Nope, it's literally true. It's all I've heard. I see all sorts of histrionics on-line, anonymous posters claiming all sorts of wild things, I just take it with a grain of salt.

Obviously not now, since a PF fan just told you otherwise in the post right above this.

You mean the guy disillusioned with PF before 5e was even announced?

Indeed. I'll also note that your "defending 5e" usually consists of "It's not awful, just meh. Could do a lot better." If that's what you consider defending, I hope you're not a defense lawyer.

In this case, your hopes are not in vain.
But, yeah, I won't counter overblown criticism with equally unfounded praise. I don't consider discussion of a hobby an adversarial system.

 

[Azurewraith]

whelp, the "look at this evidence to support the validity of my opinion" phase of the thread has started.

abandon ship!

Seems to be happening alot lately.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Tony Vargas]

if you're a defender of 5e, I would hate to see the critics.

lol. 5e dodged any kind of edition war, but there are still some pretty absurd criticisms put forth. Of the MC system, for instance, or distorted views of DM Empowerment. There's also some very pollyanna views of it that are just as unrealistic, and not particularly more of a service to the game.

IMO 5e is, by far, the best edition since 1e. And, to be honest, the only reason I hold 1e in such high esteem is because I loved its idiosyncrasies so much. It was a work of singular vision, and the 1e DMG remains legendary for a reason.

1e was the version I really dug into, I technically started with Basic, but the middle-school crowd I was in didn't really grok it, and it wasn't until I started playing AD&D that I really got to see what the game was all about. I love 1e for that reason. But I don't kid myself that it wasn't a very primitive game that had improved little over the original, and went on to improve very little through the rest of the 20th century. 5e, to re-capture that feel that's so evocative and enjoyable for us, partakes of some of those primitive elements. It's the 'best' edition since 1e at feeling like 1e. It's even better at feeling like 2e. That doesn't make it a mechanically superior game - it actually made it pretty hard for it to have been designed as well as it is - but it has helped make it a successful game, thanks to drawing in returning fans.

But yeah, it was a mess. A glorious mess, but still a mess.

Exactly. And 5e is very nearly as glorious without being quite so messy.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[NotActuallyTim]

You mean the guy disillusioned with PF before 5e was even announced?

Oh don't get me wrong. I would still play PF. It's ok as a game system. I like it.

But I rank it below Shadowrun 4th edition these days. Because the design philosophy behind it is inherently flawed.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Seriously, they really are a mess. As much as I celebrate including a table to randomly roll types of government, have you looked back at the psionics appendix in the PHB? How about the assassin's poison ability buried in the DMG?

As it happens, due to moving some boxes around, yes, I have had occasion to check those out again within the last couple of years.

 

[TheWriterFantastic™]

Unlike 1E/2E, good stats are more important, especially when all else is not equal.

In terms of meeting requirements with randomized stats, those are still easier to meet in 5e than either 1e or 2e: while each of the core classes (Fighter, Magic-User/Mage, Cleric, and Thief) in 1e and 2e had lower base requirements, each of the races that allowed multiclassing had score requirements to meet as well, and in 1e, level limits were exceptionally gimped, unless the PC's prime requisite was ridiculously high (as of Unearthed Arcana). In addition, most sub-classes had multiple score requirements as high as 13-15, with the paladin requiring a 17 in Charisma (not to mention the UA Cavalier and Cavalier-Paladin's obscene score requirements).

Both earlier systems default generation was 3d6 in order, yielding average scores of 10.5, making it highly unlikely to generate anything beyond a single class PC that's a member of the core four, and little choice in effectiveness of that character, based on scores.

Meanwhile, 5e's 4d6 yields an average of 12.25 per score, and can be assigned as desired. Neither classes nor races have score requirements anymore - only multiclass entry (which is an optional rule), and the 13 requirement is achievable after the 4th level score boost, even with a PC statted with straight 12s. A 1e or 2e PC couldn't hope to improve paltry starting scores, short of intervention by major magical artifact - an average core class PC remained such, with both multiclassing and the harder to achieve dualclassing completely out of his or her reach.

In fact, in 5e, good stats, while important, are both easily achievable and equally assignable, whereas 1e and 2e random generation was far from either.