What 5e got wrong

[Einlanzer0]

5e was a huge opportunity to do some modernizing to the traditional ruleset of dungeons and dragons. They did a great job with this in certain aspects of the game, like the updated spellcasting rules. However, my biggest complaint by far about 5e is how they made almost no updates to the traditional attribute system d&D has always used, which frankly has a lot of problems.

Pillars of Eternity is a great example of how the 6-score system of D&D could have been easily updated into something more coherent, sensible, modern, and balanced. Not only do the 6 attributes in PoE make more conceptual/thematic sense, but they are also designed with the mantra of being useful independent of class. There's no such thing as a dump stat. Some stats may be more useful for some builds than other stats, but it comes much closer to being class-independent than D&D, which I vastly prefer because it makes character concepting and building much more engaging, with the potential for much more diversity, and opens up interesting role-play options.

 

[darjr]

For the benefit of those of us who barely know what 'pillars' is, what are the stats in question? How do they work?

 

[Einlanzer0]

For the benefit of those of us who barely know what 'pillars' is, what are the stats in question? How do they work?

PoE largely draws from the traditional D&D ruleset but makes a number of changes, many of which I find to be for the better. As for the attributes, I think it would be easier to link to the wiki with them than copy/paste all of it here:

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Attribute

Note that PoE is mechanically a bit different from D&D, being a real-time strategy video game, but I'm mostly talking about the stats on a conceptual level.

 

[Jester David]

A video game can get a lot more finicky with ability scores, since the computer manages the number crunching rather than one person. It's easier to regularly shift abilities, give bonuses, and have every party member trying to improve all their abilities because all are relevant.

All ability scores are somewhat useful in D&D. There's no real bad ability scores. But you have a finite amount of points to spread around, and a character with 14, 13, 12, 12, 11, 10 is rather boring (dump stats make a character interesting) so you focus on a preferred bonus.

5e also had a legacy element. They wanted "18 Strength" to mean something, to be good. There was a cap in place. So regular stat boosts didn't work.

 

[darjr]

While I agree conceptually, and that link is neat, and so is that game, stats in D&D have always been kind of amorphous and abstract. I don't think the change would have been enough of any kind of benefit to warrant killing that sacred cow.

I use to very much think it was archaic, it was one of the main reasons I played GURPS back in the day. But I think now that I've come to appreciate the weight of history that the existing stats brings. Not nostalgia per se, though that is a component, but the momentum of what those stats mean outside of the definition stated in the books.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I don't think 5e missed out by not re-defining ability scores.

D&D without STR/DEX/CON/INT/WIS/CHA is, from a brand perspective, just not D&D.

And I don't know that I buy the case that D&D ability scores don't work fine as they are. The desire to be "class independent" offers you MUCH more in a single-player CRPG than in a group setting (where you want different characters to focus on different things). And it ain't like PoE is exactly class-independent, either - classes there favor certain scores, just as they do in D&D.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I definitely think that they didn't streamline the magic system as much as they could have. Sure, it's way more forgiving in terms of spell preparation, but not more than 3E was more forgiving than 2E.

They could have ditched spell preparation for all classes, but they didn't, and that makes me sad.

 

[delericho]

I don't think 5e missed out by not re-defining ability scores.

D&D without STR/DEX/CON/INT/WIS/CHA is, from a brand perspective, just not D&D.

Agreed. The six ability scores, and even the 3-18 range, is one of the most sacred of cows in D&D.

 

[devincutler]

5e was a huge opportunity to do some modernizing to the traditional ruleset of dungeons and dragons. They did a great job with this in certain aspects of the game, like the updated spellcasting rules. However, my biggest complaint by far about 5e is how they made almost no updates to the traditional attribute system d&D has always used, which frankly has a lot of problems.

Pillars of Eternity is a great example of how the 6-score system of D&D could have been easily updated into something more coherent, sensible, modern, and balanced. Not only do the 6 attributes in PoE make more conceptual/thematic sense, but they are also designed with the mantra of being useful independent of class. There's no such thing as a dump stat. Some stats may be more useful for some builds than other stats, but it comes much closer to being class-independent than D&D, which I vastly prefer because it makes character concepting and building much more engaging, with the potential for much more diversity, and opens up interesting role-play options.

Then it wouldn't be D&D. There are plenty of classless systems out there, many quite good. 2nd and 3rd edition Chaosium Runequest come to mind...I believe Chaosium has republished a new BRP system. Check it out. I guess it has the same general stats as D&D but is a completely skill-based system.

I think the D&D stats pretty much broadly cover all of the bases needed. Yep...I know Dex can be divided into nimbleness and coordination, and Wis can be divided into awareness and willpower, but who needs it?

 

[PnPgamer]

Well multiclassing must be mentioned. While being very streamlined and forgiving regarding spell progression, i dont like the armor and weapon proficiency system. Also related what bugs me is wizards in armor.

I am actually torn apart. The munchkin in me likes the rules, but the same rule is disgusting to the Roleplayer in me.

Also rules are simple, a bit too simple. Coming from pathfinder i have not as much options as id like.