D&D 5E Could SCAG be power creep?

[Shadowdweller00]

I didnt get that. Its either/ or.

YMMV. The Swashbuckler sneak attack expansion is very similar to alternate requirements during the D&D Next playtest.

Actually there are such situations. He doesnt get sneak attack when there are two or more enemies fighting him and him alone. If there are two (or more) enemies within 5 feet of you, you don't get sneak attack (unless you also have an ally nearby, and you target the same creature your ally is fighting).

I haven't found that to be the case. The swashbuckler retains rogue mobility on top of Fancy Footwork, including the ability to withdraw, dash, or otherwise run circles around the enemy with Cunning action. Eating an opportunity attack is, furthermore, rarely the end of the world. Theoretically the swashbuckler can be completely surrounded or cornered, but this is vanishingly rare in standard play.

Huh? How are you coming to this conclusion? Rogues get sneak attack every round as is (its trivially easy to get; you just target a critter that your ally is already attacking, or use cunning action to hide), and Rogue damage in no way is 'numerically OP' compared to a Fighter or Paladin.

Sneak attack is common, but frequently requires assistance and co-operation from an ally - the rogue isn't free to target anyone or thing he or she wants. Unless one is a Halfling (which is paid for with a lower movement speed and lack of darkvision), cover and stealth are inconsistent. The swashbuckler archetype removes even these paltry considerations - which is precisely the direction I never want to see a rogue or sneak attack mechanic go in.

 

[Illithidbix]

So... is the conclusion that if it's power creep, it's creeping VERY SLOWLY.

And possibly doubling back to sneak up on us from behind?

 

[Baumi]

It actually is neat, but it's just under powered--at 3rd level you gain the ability to heal 3 people of 3 hit points 1/short rest. I mean that _can_ be huge if they are all down. But once you've done that, you're done. And most of the time, it's "eh".

I'd add the following:

• 3rd level: When a PDK reduces a target to 0 hit points, all allies within 20' of the PDK gain advantage on the next saving throw they make before the PDKs next turn starts.
• 7th level: PDK can use second wind twice per short rest.
• 10th level: PDK gains resistance to effects that cause fear.

Also, noticed a typo. The Inspiring surge should probably have the two ally effect at 18th level, not 17th.

I really hate the Purple Dragon Knights, its an insult to anyone who wants an Warlord.

Not only is the healing nearly non-existant (the ammount is a joke), you cannot even heal someone who is at 0 HP since the target must be able to hear or see you.

 

[brehobit]

]You cannot even heal someone who is at 0 HP since the target must be able to hear or see you.

Ouch, missed that. OK, that sucks.

 

[Jabborwacky]

I own a copy of the book. Rest assured: It does not contain any power creep. It's a very options-light book, and the way 5th edition does character options make it very difficult to design any new options for an existing class that would unbalance it in a significant, game-halting way.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I haven't found that to be the case. The swashbuckler retains rogue mobility on top of Fancy Footwork, including the ability to withdraw, dash, or otherwise run circles around the enemy with Cunning action. Eating an opportunity attack is, furthermore, rarely the end of the world. Theoretically the swashbuckler can be completely surrounded or cornered, but this is vanishingly rare in standard play.

Cunning Action doesn't really help you withdraw from melee. The enemy can just follow you. If you Cunning Action (Disengage) and Dash, they can Dash too, and now you're right back where you started.

On the other hand, I just now realized that Rakish Audacity works with missile attacks. Why would a Sharpshooter be in melee when he could just shoot (Crossbow Expert) from a distance? As long as no enemy (except his target) is within 5' of him, he gets sneak attack damage. That makes me want to try a Sharpshooter Swashbuckler 9/Battlemaster 11.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

Cunning Action doesn't really help you withdraw from melee. The enemy can just follow you. If you Cunning Action (Disengage) and Dash, they can Dash too, and now you're right back where you started.

The conversation was about sneak attack denial, not kiting or running away. Cunning Action / Fancy Footwork allow you to maneuver around multiple foes to an appropriate space so that sneak attack is STILL guaranteed. (You are mistaken about running away with Cunning Action, however, but that's not strictly relevant - Cunning action allows you to double-dash)

 

[Flamestrike]

The conversation was about sneak attack denial, not kiting or running away. Cunning Action / Fancy Footwork allow you to maneuver around multiple foes to an appropriate space so that sneak attack is STILL guaranteed. (You are mistaken about running away with Cunning Action, however, but that's not strictly relevant - Cunning action allows you to double-dash)

Sneak attack is supposed to be guaranteed though. The Rogue balances agains the other martials with its sneak attack calculated into its DPR every single round.

I never see a rogue not get sneak attack in 5E. They just target something that a friend is targeting also (i.e. they shoot or stab whatver is next to the fighter). Worst case they [cunning action] hide and attack.

The Swashbuckler archetype just means the rogue isnt forced to always double team, and can go mano-a-mano and hold his own against a tougher target than your standard rogue.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

Sneak attack is supposed to be guaranteed though. The Rogue balances agains the other martials with its sneak attack calculated into its DPR every single round.

That's the part I don't like. I think a flat damage bonus is boring and completely antithetical to the fantasy archetype. The spirit and the fun of playing a rogue-type backstabber to me personally is finding clever schemes to make their ambushing-skills work, not to be given a straight bonus on a silver platter.

 

[Flamestrike]

That's the part I don't like. I think a flat damage bonus is boring and completely antithetical to the fantasy archetype.

But its not a flat damage bonus. You still need to catch your enemy at a disadvantage (either by virtue of him being distracted in combat with an ally, or you having advantage on your attack roll).

It might be easy to set up, but it still comes with limitations. It also requires an element of player interaction each round (target selection, and battlefield positioining)

The spirit and the fun of playing a rogue-type backstabber to me personally is finding clever schemes to make their ambushing-skills work, not to be given a straight bonus on a silver platter.

Swashbucklers are not 'backstabbing' though are they? The archetype is for people who want a rougish character with the ability to duel others 'one on one'.

In a two on one situation, he suddenly sucks.