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mellored

Legend
But, to be fair, is there any particular reason why we should have expected it to happen by now?
Is anyone doing that?

But there hasn't been anything remotely approaching a new class introduced into the game yet.
They are defiantly taking the slow approach to 5e splat books.

But they are doing a playtest of the Mystic (psionic) as a new class. Which was voted just below warlord as a class.
And they made a few new ranger class attempts. Since people are also unhappy about them. Which was much higher then the warlord.
And we already have a few 1/2 warlords. So we can at least taste it, if not get a full meal.

So I agree. I don't expect any warlord work for a year at least. After Mystic, after the ranger rework, and alchemist / artificer (which was also recently voted high).


Unless they like my homebrew class and buy it from me... :D
 

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Lord Twig

Adventurer
I'm frankly amazed that fans have been arguing over a hypothetical/fan-made class for 48 pages now, in a forum special-made to contain a sea of similar arguments.

I guess I shouldn't be though. Now that it looks like non-LG paladins are here to stay, the D&D culture warriors need some new concept to tell other fans that it doesn't belong in D&D.

That is certainly part of it.

For myself I write a post to express my opinion. Then I clarify as questions come up. Eventually I feel I have said everything I need to a figure I am done.

But after I think I'm done someone makes a post that completely misrepresents my position and I feel compelled to correct them. It's fine if you don't agree with me, but don't try to say I am saying something I'm not.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
But, to be fair, is there any particular reason why we should have expected it to happen by now?[The company also hasn't bothered to get around to properly introducing a Psionics class which has a longer history in the game.
Longer history, but not much history in a PH1, which was the initial litmus test. Psionics only occurred in a PH1 in an appendix, and not in the form of a class or even sub-class (like the Illusionist or Assassin in the same PH1) or quasi-class like the Bard in it's own appendix.

Even so, we do have the Mystic in the pipeline, with not one, but two appearances in UA. That's hopeful.

Conversely, the Warlord was a full class in a prior-edition PH1. Only one of them, but that was also true of the Warlock and Sorcerer.

And, of course, 5e was meant to expand the range of play styles the game supported, and to be for fans of each prior edition. Adding the Warlord would be in very dramatically support of both those goals. Indeed, it's hard to imagine another class addition that would have as great an impact.

In terms of actual expanded player options, D&D 5E is probably the single most dead edition ever put out since 1st.
5e has been out almost two years. The first 1e book came out in 1977, two years later, the third book had come out. 5e is ahead of that curve. Even if we're fair and count 1e from 1979 when the first three books had come out, all we had two years later were the Fiend Folio and Deities & Demigods, IIRC. No new player options. While, in 5e we've had SCAG and some on-line goodies.

But there hasn't been anything remotely approaching a new class introduced into the game yet.
There have been new sub-classes both in print (SCAG) and in UA, and the new Mystic class in UA, twice.

What if my fighter doesn't want to be distracted by the ruffian's ally? Note, not all thieves are pc's.
Y'know, there was a huge debate about that in the 3.x era. It was possible for a Rogue to flank with a fairly trivial ally, giving both the flanking bonus and enabling SA. At higher level, a contemptible enemy could provide flanking for a rogue, even though it did trivial damage and needed a natural 20 to hit you even after the flanking bonus, while the rogue would be inflicting very high damage. So, the thinking went, "why can't I just ignore the flanker, and defend fully against the rogue?"

There was no great answer for that.

I don't think it's particularly analogous, but it is an illustration of how thinking too hard about abstract mechanics, can create problems. And, it's also an example of 5e being 'better' than 3.x, both in the sense that Bounded Accuracy makes the situation less extreme, and in the sense that 5e is wide-open to a DM ruling to allow you to 'ignore' an enemy and thus avoid an SA (or not), in a way 3.5 (and especially the RAW zeitgeist of the 3.5 community) is not.

But after I think I'm done someone makes a post that completely misrepresents my position and I feel compelled to correct them. It's fine if you don't agree with me, but don't try to say I am saying something I'm not.
The medium can be tricky. You can come off as saying something you don't mean to. For instance, most of your posts on this topic come off as arguments to exclude the Warlord, rather than to assure that it be optional. For one thing, it being optional is a given, so that's going to contribute to that impression.

For another, your rarely bring a diatribe back around to that point.

Just because you say it doesn't make it true.
No, the facts make it true.
We just had a long list of Warlord powers from 4e that explicitly described the targets of said powers as admiring the Warlord.
We just had a long list that never said any such thing. Inspired, yes, admiring, no. Go ahead and try to find one. Or, before wasting your time, consider that those are all fluff text, which, in 4e, was separate from rules text, and could be changed even at the player level.

There is no requirement you feel a certain way about the Warlord to be inspired by him or accept good tactical advice, and you could always choose not to, in any case. Inspiration is a powerful but fleeting thing. You could be inspired to try harder in the moment, to show up a bitter rival at least as plausibly, as to please an adored hero, or live up to an annoying side-kick's faith in you, or save a non-combatant you're committed to aiding. That moment probably won't change how you feel about that character - unless you decide it does, of course.
 
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Lord Twig

Adventurer
The medium can be tricky. You can come off as saying something you don't mean to. For instance, most of your posts on this topic come off as arguments to exclude the Warlord, rather than to assure that it be optional. For one thing, it being optional is a given, so that's going to contribute to that impression.

For another, your rarely bring a diatribe back around to that point.

I'm trying to explain why some people might object to having a Warlord in their party. That would necessarily mean that they would exclude the Warlord as an acceptable character choice. But that would only be if they choose to exclude it.

No, the facts make it true.

Your opinions are not facts.

We just had a long list that never said any such thing. Inspired, yes, admiring, no. Go ahead and try to find one. Or, before wasting your time, consider that those are all fluff text, which, in 4e, was separate from rules text, and could be changed even at the player level.

There is no requirement you feel a certain way about the Warlord to be inspired by him or accept good tactical advice, and you could always choose not to, in any case. Inspiration is a powerful but fleeting thing. You could be inspired to try harder in the moment, to show up a bitter rival at least as plausibly, as to please an adored hero, or live up to an annoying side-kick's faith in you, or save a non-combatant you're committed to aiding. That moment probably won't change how you feel about that character - unless you decide it does, of course.

And sure, admire was not specifically mentioned. Being comforted and inspired by the mere presence of the Warlord was though.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I'm trying to explain why some people might object to having a Warlord in their party.
There's really no need. Some people might want to exclude the new Mystic, or existing classes like the Paladin or Warlock or whatever, for a wide variety of reasons. One is always free to hold an opinion or have a preference.

It's hard to imagine a scenario where anyone would be forced to play one. Though, in any scenario where a number of other classes have already been dropped from a setting, one of the remaining ones might be left to soul source of something critical.

Your opinions are not facts.
We weren't talking about my opinions, but about facts alluded to up-thread, I think by Mellored, but I'm not sure at this point, since no nested quoting on EN World ('nuther pet peeve). ;)

And sure, admire was not specifically mentioned.
Nor was it inescapably implied. And, those were all fluff text, and subject to change even at the player level. In 5e, of course, it's the DM that rules how things work, so a DM who wanted to stick you with a specific, hypothetically offensive, fluff always could. Probably among the least of things a DM could do to wreck your play experience, though, you prettymuch gotta trust us DMs. ::angel::
 

Hussar

Legend
None of these are new arguments. Anyone can say the exact same words, but only if the Warlord says them will you be healed. How does that make sense?

Anyone can distract an opponent, but, only a rogue actually gains any benefit from it.

Anyone can get angry but only a barbarian can rage.

Anyone can say the same words, but, only a caster drops a fireball.

Isn't this the point of a class system?

But, to me, it's interesting that it's okay for my rogue to force your character to distract my target for me, completely removing any agency for your character - you have zero choice about this, heck, you might not even want the enemy to be hurt, maybe you're trying to get him to surrender - and that's okay because it only impacts the rogue's character directly. So, it's okay to completely ignore you and anything you want, so long as it has no mechanical impact on your character? Would that be correct to say?
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
But, to me, it's interesting that it's okay for my rogue to force your character to distract my target for me, completely removing any agency for your character - you have zero choice about this, heck, you might not even want the enemy to be hurt, maybe you're trying to get him to surrender.
Talk about "good cop/bad cop:"

Paladin: Surrender, varlet! Before yon Rogue dost murder thee!

Varlet: Who you call'n a 'varlet,' I ain't never parked no nob's car in my life! Why I autta- *gak!*

Rogue: That was easy, thanks for distracting him.

Paladin: Remind me never to stand next to anyone...



But, I'm sure any reasonable DM would rule that you could decline to act as an ally to the Rogue in that circumstance.

Edit: Actually, that's an important point. The above could have rated an errata ("update" pff!) under 4e the way the original Commander's Strike did. But, 5e runs on rulings, not rules. So it's fine for rules to just blithely assume that allies act like allies by default, because the DM will rule otherwise as appropriate. I like the idea of Warlord abilities being carefully written to leave decisions & agency with the ally, because I do, especially as a player, like a clear ruleset. But, as a 5e DM, I have to acknowledge that in a case where one class ability impinges on another player's free will or agency or concept or whatever (as above, or as it might with a less carefully-worded-than-4e take on some Warlord abilities), it's my responsibility to issue a good ruling to defuse the problem.
 
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pemerton

Legend
Anyone can help anyone else. It's called the Help action. It's just that the rogue is better at taking advantage of fighting with others.

Sneak Attack isn't something that anyone else gives the rogue, it is something the rogue is capable of because he trained himself to be good at that style of fighting.
Anyone can say the exact same words, but only if the Warlord says them will you be healed. How does that make sense?
Anyone can fight with an ally and strike when the foe is distracted by that ally - but only a rogue gets sneak attack damage?

Anyone can recite the "Band of Brothers" speech but only a character with the Inspiring Leader feat grants a buff. How does that make sense?

Anyone can promise his/her soul to the devil, but only the warlock gets a whole lot of power in return. How does that make sense?

Answer: it's a class-based game. Abilities are not allocated simply on the basis of our in-fiction imagining of the characters. Rather, choice of PC build - which is a metagame choice - constrains what we can imagine in the fiction. This is one way in which D&D is different from a game like Runequest or Burning Wheel, in which there are no classes and access to abilities does turn simply on in-fiction considerations.

(EDIT: Ninja'ed by Hussar between opening browser and actually posting reply!)

The Warlord doesn't require you to admire him. He only requires that you find his presence comforting and inspiring. See? No admiration at all.
I've been comfoted by the presence of my baby. I didn't admire her - I loved her, but not all love is admiration. (Just as not all admiration is love.)

Some people are comforted by the presence of their pets. Does that mean they admire their cat?

You seem to be working with a very limited palette in trying to paint a picture of the variety of human relationships and emotional connections/interactions.
 
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Hussar

Legend
[MENTION=31754]Lord Twig[/MENTION] - iirc you had an issue with tactical warlords because they forced other characters to do what the warlord wanted to get advantages.

How is that different from a rogue.

Note there is at least one power of every warlord level that is tactical and not inspirational so it's very easy to play a warlord that has nothing inspiring save healing which I freely admit is an issue.

To drill right down to it - what's the problem with Hammer and Anvil?
 

pemerton

Legend
Requires your ally to be inspired by you (or your words at least).

<snip>

Your inspiring again.

<snip>

Direction. Command. Same thing.

<snip>

When I read these powers this is what comes to mind. I understand that others might read it differently. If you look at it from the Warlords point of view it's awesome, but from the perspective of those that they are used on, not so much.
I don't understand why you think it's a "touche" moment to point out that the warlord inspires. That's the point of the class - especially the "inspirational" variant. (There is also some commanding, which another player is free to have his/her PC ignore if s/he likes.)

What you have not explained is why you would expect it to be very common for a player to dislike his/her PC being inspired by another player's PC. Only for such a person is the awesomeness "not so much". Do you (or your friends) typically play characters who despise or have no fellow-feeling towards your fellow party members? And do you expect such players to nevertheless want to play a character whose principal flavour is connectedness and relationships with fellow party members?

When there is a paladin in your group, do the other PCs stand inside his/her aura of protection enjoying the magical benefits while scoffing at the character and virtue of its originator?
 

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