D&D 5E So 5 Intelligence Huh

This is false for the 1st ed AD&D PHB and DMG. I've quoted the relevant paragraphs upthread.

Oh, really?

1e PHB:

Intelligence is quite similar to what is currently known as intelligence quotient, but it also includes mnemanic ability, reasoning, and learning ability...

1e DMG:

Intelligence: The intelligence rating roughly corresponds to our modern "IQ" scores. However, it assumes mnemonic, reasoning, and learning ability skills in additional areas outside the written word.

Those says very clearly that int = IQ

They say that INT "is quite similar to" or "roughly corresponds to" IQ, but (i) they don't give any metric for that similarity or rough correspondence, and (ii) they both say that INT also includes/assumes things that IQ doesn't. Similarity to and roughly corresponding to are not identical to or synonyms of equals or even uniformly correlates with.

Yes they do give the metric. It's in the MM where it goes over what intelligence scores are equivalent to. Low, highly, genius, etc.

And you still haven't addressed Moldvay Basic, which has an INT chart which has nothing to say about IQ and is all about literacy and language use.

Why would I address something that doesn't matter? Basic ran concurrently with 1e and 2e. It was not an edition of D&D, but rather a separate game that is also D&D. If it was an edition, 1e would be 2e, 2e would be 3e and so on.

No one is treating INT differently for animals - as for humans, so for them it confers certain bonuses or penalties on checks that involve reasoning, memory etc.

You can't refuse the baboon an IQ test and say that you are treating int the same for both humans and baboons. You aren't.

But INT doesn't exhaust cognitive, linguistic etc abilities in 5e. Sufficient proof of this is that (unlike Moldvay Basic and AD&D) language learning is completely divorced from INT.

There is nothing in 5e that says you cannot have an animal learn language. The MM entries are just for the average animal of that type. The DM can modify them, including skills and language while still being within RAW.

And the most fundamental issue is this: where, in 1st ed AD&D, do the rules say that having a particular INT score must serve as a limit on a player's action declaration for his/her PC? I don't see that written anywhere. And in the only discussion of roleplaying in the book - which is the closing section on SUCCESSFUL ADVENTURES - Gygax assumes that each player will do his/her best to bring his/her own intelligence to bear upon the game. The notion that playing a character means pretending to have the mental abilities of that character is nowhere to be found in the 1st ed AD&D core rules. (Of course the DMG mentions that principle in many places as applying to the GM, but the GM is not playing NPCs/monsters in the way that players are playing their PCs.)

The Feeblemind Spell. The brain becomes that of a moronic child and stays that way. If you are correct, the PC can just run around being brilliant because the player is. If I am right, the PC is a moron and plays the equivalent intelligence of a moron. A moron would be in the 2-4 range.

0 non-intelligent or not ratable
1 animal intelligence
2-4 semi-intelligent
5-7 low intelligence
8-10 average (human) intelligence
11-12 very intelligent
13-14 highly intelligent
15-16 exceptionally intelligent
17-18 genius
19-20 supra-genius
21+ god like

It's also funny you mention the Successful Adventures portion of the PHB

Characters must know each other's strengths and weaknesses, physical and mental, in order to meet the problem posed with the correct character or combination thereof.

Note that it says characters and not players, and then goes on to mention mental strengths and WEAKNESSES in order to meet the problems posed. Low int is a mental weakness.
 
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They aren't off by 40 points. The IQ charts of the 1e days were different that the modern ones.

This is an interesting theory. You seem to be referring to the shift from using "ratio IQ" (mental age divided by chronological age) to using "deviation IQ" (an expression of how far someone deviates from the average of 100). The third edition of the Stanford-Binet IQ test adopted deviation IQ scoring in 1960, well before the publication of the Monster Manual, or Blume's article for that matter, in 1977. But it is quite possible that Gygax was using outdated (at the time) IQ classification schemes as some kind of model for his chart in the Monster Manual. His use of the term 'genius' strongly suggests this, as the last IQ test to use this classification was the original 1916 Stanford-Binet IQ test, which classified a ratio IQ of above 140 as "'near' genius or genius". This translates into a deviation IQ score of above 136, thus my comment that, if you accept Gygax's use of the term 'genius' as referring to an IQ classification and see that is covers an Intelligence score range of 17 to 18, multiplying by 10 will produce a number for the lower end of the range (170) nearly 40 points (34 to be precise) off from where it should be.
 

WHEREAS, if you assume 3d6 simulates a normal distribution of intelligence, the corresponding deviation IQ for an Intelligence of 17 is 134, within two points of where Stanford-Binet put it in 1916.
 






Oh, really?

1e PHB:

1e DMG:

Those says very clearly that int = IQ
No they don't. I had already quoted post passages multiple times upthread. The PHB says that INT is quite similar to IQ, but includes other stuff. The DMG says that INT roughly corresponds to IQ, but includes other stuff. Neither of those things is an assertion that INT = IQ, or is proportionate to IQ. They are assertions of similarity and of rough equality respectively - neither of those things is a version of equality, identity, or uniform correlation.

Yes they do give the metric. It's in the MM where it goes over what intelligence scores are equivalent to. Low, highly, genius, etc.
As [MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION] has pointed out, if you take those as a metric for IQ, you discover that there is no *10 correlation, because 17 INT correlates to around 140 IQ.

Basic ran concurrently with 1e and 2e. It was not an edition of D&D, but rather a separate game that is also D&D.
Basic D&D is a version of D&D. It is based on the original game, plus Holmes Basic. It's a better guide to what INT means than a Dragon article by Brian Blume!

You can't refuse the baboon an IQ test and say that you are treating int the same for both humans and baboons.
The question of whether or not a baboon can sit an IQ test has nothing to do with its INT score. Apart from anything else, a baboon cannot speak, read or write, which is sufficient to show that (whatever its INT score) it can't take an IQ test. In 5e (unlike in Moldvay Basic or AD&D) no connection is made between linguistic ability and INT.

There is nothing in 5e that says you cannot have an animal learn language.
There is nothing that says that humans can't fly, either. Some things are obvious because of the subject matter.

And if your character has a low number in a mental ability do you use creative rules readings to find someway to say that that number is really isn't as low as it is?
What is the rule that is being read "creatively"? Where is the rule that states that, if a PC has a low INT, then the player is restricted in permissible action declarations?
 


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