D&D 5E Clerics and Wisdom

[Oofta]

I don't think this is really right at all. Clerical power comes from understanding their religion's teachings, not from force of personality. They're conduits for someone else's power, they're not primarily using their own emotions or ability to project their feelings.

Exactly. If they were using their force of will to cast spells learned from an otherworldly power they'd be warlocks.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

This is why I think spellcasters should be forced to think about multiple ability scores in precisely the same way that physically-oriented characters need to think about multiple ability scores.

For a physically-oriented character--hereafter "a Fighter" even though I know there are many other such classes--it's pretty much impossible to get away with focusing on just one stat and doing well at your job. Dexterity comes close, for finesse Fighters, but many people find this to be a serious flaw of Dex. Even then, though, you really want at least two of the physical scores to be good numbers, typically Con + one of Str or Dex. This helps to keep characters in balance, as there are trade-offs for any given character choosing to specialize in one or another. Str+Con gives slightly better defenses (or the biggest weapons) and the carrying capacity to pull off a variety of tricks, but sacrifices speed (Initiative, rather) and a common target for offensive abilities (Dex saves). Dex+Con gives the best ranged weapons and better secondary stats (as stated), but sacrifices top-end defense and, if truly dumping Str, potentially sacrifices inventory flexibility.

These kinds of trade-offs basically don't happen for spellcasters. You pump your core stat as high as it will go...and that's that. It gives you everything: the DC of your effects, bonus prepared spells (if applicable), the magnitude of ability-dependent effects. There's never a spell-related compromise between getting some effects and not others. (Technically, 5e allows you to "dump" even your spellcasting stat, if you choose only those spells which are ability-independent e.g. no +Cha damage, no saves, but that's a trade-off about zero investment vs. some investment, not which spellcasting stat to invest in.)

I don't, precisely, know how this should be addressed. But I definitely think it should be. Splitting up things like what determines your DCs, gives bonus damage, influences number of targets, etc. would be a "nerf" to spellcasters in a way that makes them more interesting rather than less, and would help alleviate some of the issues cited in the OP.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

So, I guess what I'm saying is - I think Charisma makes about 600% more sense as a spellcasting stat for Clerics than wisdom. Wisdom should, at best, be supplemental for most spellcasters, with the possible exception of intuition or nature based magic.

Thoughts?

A system in development tends toward meeting the perceived needs of the game. The Wisdom stat exists because they needed something to measure how good Clerics were, and Charisma already governed the super-important tasks related to NPC reactions and hirelings. It seemed like a better alternative than making a 'Faith' or 'Piety' stat, which nobody other than a Cleric would ever care about.

(It's the same reason why D&D uses separate stats for Strength and Dexterity, where a less-combat-centric game can get away with just one Body stat to cover them both.)

Of course, things change over time. A skill system was implemented at some point, and the focus of the game shifted away from hireling micromanagement. The current system is an attempt to reconcile modern design with ancient tradition, which is why it seems wonky in the manner you have noticed. If they were trying to create a new game, and weren't tied down by baggage, they probably would have gone with Perception and Willpower instead of Wisdom and Charisma, and Willpower would govern spellcasting for anyone who wasn't a wizard.

 

[Satyrn]

. . . But I think [MENTION=6801204]Satyrn[/MENTION] really nails it. . .

I I'm tempted to make a crucifixion joke. . .


But I really want to deflect the credit you're giving me. It's @Pontius Pilate that nailed it. I mean [MENTION=6777378]Iry[/MENTION].

 

[GX.Sigma]

I also think Charisma should be the Cleric stat, but for entirely different reasons.

From a secular perspective, clerics have power because of their ability to manipulate the emotions of the masses. To read from the scriptures and spread the word. To perform ceremonies and rituals. To threaten people with eternal punishment unless they do what the holy book says. To be a leader of the community. Public speaking. Demagoguery. Human influence. Performance, Persuasion, Deception, Intimidation. This is all Charisma stuff.

In D&D lore, Clerics get power from the gods. The gods have power because people believe in them. A Cleric's job is to get more people to believe in his god. Whether through good acts (Clerics of Chauntea spreading love and health) or evil (Clerics of Bhaal spreading death and fear), it is primarily a matter of influencing other peoples' feelings. That's Charisma.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I've had a lot of cognitive dissonance surrounding the way int, wis, and cha are conceptually handled in d&d over the years, and at this point I honestly think a lot of it can be attributed to the fact that clerics use Wisdom for their spellcasting mechanic, when that frankly attaches baggage to the score that is inappropriate. The entire concepts of willpower and devotion should revolve around Charisma, not Wisdom. Charisma is what enables a priest to emulate and draw power from the deities they serve. Wisdom is fundamentally about emotional maturity and the application of reason, which has little to do with piety and is the antithesis of dogma. Organized religion (regardless of its truth or lack of) is largely based on authority, and this is even more true in most D&D religions.

So, I guess what I'm saying is - I think Charisma makes about 600% more sense as a spellcasting stat for Clerics than wisdom. Wisdom should, at best, be supplemental for most spellcasters, with the possible exception of intuition or nature based magic.

Thoughts?

Here's how I think about it: Wisdom is about emotional control and self-discipline, having a low time-preference, patience, etc. Someone who works out every morning and always does their college homework before it's due is displaying Wisdom, IMO. One of my college professors told a story of how at a Hebrew school he studied at (where he got his degree? not sure), the PhD exam including the examiner sticking a pin into the Torah, and then telling the applicant what page number the pin was at. He was expected to have the book so well memorized that he could tell the examiner what letter the pin was on. That sounds impossible to me, but I tell you, if anyone could memorize all the letters in the Torah they would IMO be showing extremely high Wisdom ("I can spend hundreds of hours memorizing trivia") and perhaps a moderate lack of Int ("why am I even doing this?").

If you ask me why Wizards get a bonus to their spell DCs for high Int, I'll say, "Wizards know the general principles behind certain kinds of spells and are alert for opportunities to customize them to circumstances. When a high-level wizard casts a Hypnotic Pattern on a bunch of goblins, the DC is higher because he's rewriting the spell on the fly to shift the patterns lower on the visual spectrum (less blue, more green) because he knows that goblin eyes don't detect high-spectrum colors very well. He's also adding some jitter at a subliminal frequency."

If you ask me why Sorcerers get a bonus to their spell DCs for high Cha, I'll say, "Sorcerers and warlocks impose their will directly on the magical energy of the universe. If a wizard is flipping a switch or closing a circuit on a magical circuit board, a warlock or sorcerer is bypassing the systems by plugging himself directly into the system as a cable. The stronger his willpower and presence, the more magical energy he can channel without burning out. When a high-level sorcerer casts Hypnotic Pattern, the DC is higher because the colors are more vibrant, intense, and harder to ignore."

If you ask me why Clerics get a bonus to their spell DCs for high Wis, I'll say, "Clerics and Druids are the recipients of wisdom passed down through the ages. Hidden within the catechisms and creeds of their faiths is a series of exact instructions to any number of situations and rituals. Cleric spells are really ancient codified magical knowledge which the cleric has memorized and regurgitates at need without fully understanding but with faith in those who came before. That's why clerics have access to the entire clerical spell list, and yet also why clerics are not widely renowned for their abilities at spell research--they're more about tradition than innovation. The more disciplined the cleric is, the more thoroughly he knows the catechisms and the more precisely he is prepared to perform the holy rituals. When a high-level cleric casts Inflict Wounds, the DC is higher because he is touching you exactly on the Third Nexus of Enervation. A wizard could probably tell you what the Third Nexus is and why it's a uniquely vulnerable spiritual location, but the cleric doesn't care why, he just trusts that it's correct."

You can probably tell that I dislike playing clerics. False priests and phony wizards, the lot of them.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

In D&D lore, Clerics get power from the gods. The gods have power because people believe in them. A Cleric's job is to get more people to believe in his god. Whether through good acts (Clerics of Chauntea spreading love and health) or evil (Clerics of Bhaal spreading death and fear), it is primarily a matter of influencing other peoples' feelings. That's Charisma.

Only in some settings/campaigns. In others, a cleric's job is to find beautiful young maidens for Zeus to seduce, or to curse those young maidens with ugliness for Hera's sake, or to receive the sacrifices to Baal, kill the animals to make a sweet smell, and pile the treasure up in the storeroom. Worship is irrelevant except as a way of flattering the god into (hopefully) treating you a bit more mercifully.

As a DM, my favorite kinds of clerics are venal Athasian templars, whose job is to keep the city running so the sorcerer-god-king doesn't have to pay attention to it. I know exactly how to run both sides of that relationship, and it makes for great adventuring setting to boot.

 

[Azzy]

I agree with a lot of what the others are saying, but I'll also share another perspective to consider:

The original classes were based on perceived archetypes. The cleric, being drawn from that of the holy man/wise woman that are supposed to be wise, insightful, understanding of divine provenance, enlightened, etc. That's likely why the Wisdom was chosen as one of the six attributes and why it was the prime-requisite of the cleric class.

 

[Einlanzer0]

No.

Oh, wait, you need more thoughts?

Look, you can have a long thread about what an ability is supposed to be (along with photographic evidence, as in dexterity is really strength), but you have to remember the following points-

1. No six ability system perfectly captures the abilities of a person.
2. The mental abilities will bleed into each other to some extent, just as the physical abilities do. Does it make "sense," that a Wizard only cares about intelligence and not wisdom or charisma?
3. When you start talking about organized religion, you have to be careful to separate any RL issues/observations you might have with what happens in the game world. In FR, for example, gods are real. Period. A religion may or may not be organized. A cleric could be a part of an organized hierarchy or a hermit, and the religion may have a hierarchy - or not.
4. Building on (2), the spell casting primaries are portioned out partly based on natural fit, partly for historic reasons (clerics have always used wisdom since the 70s), and partly for gameplay (chia is already used by Bards and Warlocks).

Now, all that said, you can have your own preference and make your own house rule. But there's no "as a matter of logic, given what I believe wisdom and charisma mean and what organized religion entails, this must be the case."

Thanks for your detailed, if condescending, explanation of the abstract nature of D&D's ability scores even if I already well understood it. I have to say that I still disagree with you (and many of the above posters who echoed your sentiment), and here's why:

Regardless of whether gods are real or not, FR religion (using your example) more or less works just like real world religion. It's not really about esoteric knowledge, at all. This is something only scholars are really interested in. Devotees of the various religions act as representatives of the gods they worship, and their primary goals generally involve evangelizing, or spreading the (usually simple) tenants of their faith to new followers (good in D&D terms) or simply destroying other faiths (evil in D&D terms). This is primarily accomplished through their ability to attract and lead congregations of people that are looking for a cause to believe in.

Wisdom may or may not play a role - it's easy to imagine both very wise (empathic, pragmatic, emotionally mature) priests as well as very unwise (dogmatic, authoritarian) ones that are nevertheless very effective as priests. Therefore, to me, wisdom wouldn't seem to matter nearly as much as charisma when it comes to your efficacy as a representative of your faith and, consequently, the power your god entrusts you with to help spread it.

 

[Einlanzer0]

I also think Charisma should be the Cleric stat, but for entirely different reasons.

From a secular perspective, clerics have power because of their ability to manipulate the emotions of the masses. To read from the scriptures and spread the word. To perform ceremonies and rituals. To threaten people with eternal punishment unless they do what the holy book says. To be a leader of the community. Public speaking. Demagoguery. Human influence. Performance, Persuasion, Deception, Intimidation. This is all Charisma stuff.

In D&D lore, Clerics get power from the gods. The gods have power because people believe in them. A Cleric's job is to get more people to believe in his god. Whether through good acts (Clerics of Chauntea spreading love and health) or evil (Clerics of Bhaal spreading death and fear), it is primarily a matter of influencing other peoples' feelings. That's Charisma.

These are all the same reasons I think it should be Charisma as well, even if I didn't articulate that well.