D&D 5E Clerics and Wisdom

[The Crimson Binome]

These kinds of trade-offs basically don't happen for spellcasters. You pump your core stat as high as it will go...and that's that. It gives you everything: the DC of your effects, bonus prepared spells (if applicable), the magnitude of ability-dependent effects.

Spellcasters need Dexterity and Constitution at least as much as a Strength-based fighter does. Initiative and HP are useful to everyone, and while the fighter is going to be the target of more weapon attacks, their higher AC and Hit Dice combine to make those stats no more useful over-all than they are to a wizard.

A fighter can get by with just Strength exactly as well as a wizard can get by with just Intelligence.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Fanaelialae]

Thanks for your detailed, if condescending, explanation of the abstract nature of D&D's ability scores even if I already well understood it. I have to say that I still disagree with you (and many of the above posters who echoed your sentiment), and here's why:

Regardless of whether gods are real or not, FR religion (using your example) more or less works just like real world religion. It's not really about esoteric knowledge, at all. This is something only scholars are really interested in. Devotees of the various religions act as representatives of the gods they worship, and their primary goals generally involve evangelizing, or spreading the (usually simple) tenants of their faith to new followers (good in D&D terms) or simply destroying other faiths (evil in D&D terms). This is primarily accomplished through their ability to attract and lead congregations of people that are looking for a cause to believe in.

Wisdom may or may not play a role - it's easy to imagine both very wise (empathic, pragmatic, emotionally mature) priests as well as very unwise (dogmatic, authoritarian) ones that are nevertheless very effective as priests. Therefore, to me, wisdom wouldn't seem to matter nearly as much as charisma when it comes to your efficacy as a representative of your faith and, consequently, the power your god entrusts you with to help spread it.

I disagree. As I see it, clerics are saints and prophets, guides and protectors of the faithful. You can't lead anyone properly if you don't comprehend the will of the one you serve, and that requires wisdom. A low wisdom cleric is a case of the blind leading the blind, a false prophet, regardless of how charismatic he might be. A high charisma, low wisdom cleric is likely to gather a sizable cult only to have it end in tragedy born of religious fanaticism and bad decision-making, IMO.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Keep in mind that, from the word Go back in the first days of D&D, clerics were never meant to be your average priest, or even necessarily your average spellcasting priest. They were warriors for their gods, crusaders on the battlefield, spreading the faith not by proselytizing but by smiting the enemies of deity and Church.

Some of that focus has faded over the years, with the introduction of the paladin class and various ways of customizing the cleric--spheres, domains, what have you--but as initially described when their identity was first firmly established, they were far more likely to put a mace upside your head than knock on the door and try to sell you "The Watchtower."

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Thanks for your detailed, if condescending, explanation of the abstract nature of D&D's ability scores even if I already well understood it. I have to say that I still disagree with you (and many of the above posters who echoed your sentiment), and here's why:

Regardless of whether gods are real or not, FR religion (using your example) more or less works just like real world religion. It's not really about esoteric knowledge, at all. This is something only scholars are really interested in. Devotees of the various religions act as representatives of the gods they worship, and their primary goals generally involve evangelizing, or spreading the (usually simple) tenants of their faith to new followers (good in D&D terms) or simply destroying other faiths (evil in D&D terms). This is primarily accomplished through their ability to attract and lead congregations of people that are looking for a cause to believe in.

Wisdom may or may not play a role - it's easy to imagine both very wise (empathic, pragmatic, emotionally mature) priests as well as very unwise (dogmatic, authoritarian) ones that are nevertheless very effective as priests. Therefore, to me, wisdom wouldn't seem to matter nearly as much as charisma when it comes to your efficacy as a representative of your faith and, consequently, the power your god entrusts you with to help spread it.

You're making the assumption that the power that a god entrusts a cleric is directly based upon the cleric's ability to schmooze their way up in the church hierarchy and bring in converts. I do not believe that that has ever been official lore.

As a suggestion:
The church and god probably do value the charismatic evangelist, but bear in mind that the cleric class isn't a standard member of the church whose job is to respect the hierarchy and tend the masses. The cleric is the hand of her god, with a mandate to do their god's work on the material plane, often outside of the official church. Its not the cleric's job to proselytize, its their duty to uphold their god's aims and smite/protect the evildoers/innocent (or whatever, based upon the god itself).

The divine power that the cleric channels would appear to be based more upon the cleric's sense, ability to resist temptation, and groundedness in the world. The cleric is a representative of the god in a way that most church members will never be, trusted with a portion of the god's personal power, and if they were to misuse it, it might have repercussions both on the mortal world, and amongst the gods. Thus discernment, strength of character, and common sense are a better measure of the level of power the god is willing to risk than how well the cleric gets on with other mortals.

 

[Warbringer]

I've had a lot of cognitive dissonance surrounding the way int, wis, and cha are conceptually handled in d&d over the years, and at this point I honestly think a lot of it can be attributed to the fact that clerics use Wisdom for their spellcasting mechanic, when that frankly attaches baggage to the score that is inappropriate. The entire concepts of willpower and devotion should revolve around Charisma, not Wisdom. Charisma is what enables a priest to emulate and draw power from the deities they serve. Wisdom is fundamentally about emotional maturity and the application of reason, which has little to do with piety and is the antithesis of dogma. Organized religion (regardless of its truth or lack of) is largely based on authority, and this is even more true in most D&D religions.

So, I guess what I'm saying is - I think Charisma makes about 600% more sense as a spellcasting stat for Clerics than wisdom. Wisdom should, at best, be supplemental for most spellcasters, with the possible exception of intuition or nature based magic.

Thoughts?

I need a breakdown on how you arrived at 600%

 

[seebs]

Clerical spellcasting isn't related to evangelism, it's related to their ability to channel the will of the divine. Not their own will, someone else's. Wisdom.

 

[Henry]

You're making the assumption that the power that a god entrusts a cleric is directly based upon the cleric's ability to schmooze their way up in the church hierarchy and bring in converts...

The divine power that the cleric channels would appear to be based more upon the cleric's sense, ability to resist temptation, and groundedness in the world.

Clerical spellcasting isn't related to evangelism, it's related to their ability to channel the will of the divine. Not their own will, someone else's. Wisdom.

Also, note that a large number of real-world religions put huge emphasis on seeking wisdom, or submission, or the wisdom of submission. It's uncommon for a religion to emphasize getting along with others as the primary goal, or of dominating the universe or others as the path to divinity. I could throw a few dozen quotes here from a half-dozen different religions, but it would take emphasis off the point - most of the examples Gary Gygax and early D&D writers had to draw from was religions where wisdom and understanding were the goals. So, clerics hover around wisdom.

 

[Henry]

You're making the assumption that the power that a god entrusts a cleric is directly based upon the cleric's ability to schmooze their way up in the church hierarchy and bring in converts...

The divine power that the cleric channels would appear to be based more upon the cleric's sense, ability to resist temptation, and groundedness in the world.

Clerical spellcasting isn't related to evangelism, it's related to their ability to channel the will of the divine. Not their own will, someone else's. Wisdom.

Also, note that a large number of real-world religions put huge emphasis on seeking wisdom, or submission, or the wisdom of submission. It's uncommon for a religion to emphasize getting along with others as the primary goal, or of dominating the universe or others as the path to divinity. I could throw a few dozen quotes here from a half-dozen different religions, but it would take emphasis off the point - most of the examples Gary Gygax and early D&D writers had to draw from was religions where wisdom and understanding were the goals. So, clerics hover around wisdom.

 

[pemerton]

As I see it, clerics are saints and prophets, guides and protectors of the faithful. You can't lead anyone properly if you don't comprehend the will of the one you serve, and that requires wisdom. A low wisdom cleric is a case of the blind leading the blind, a false prophet, regardless of how charismatic he might be.

When I look at some of the classic examples of inspirational prophets, a powerful charisma seems to be pretty central - they attract followers, are known to work miracles, etc. I don't think there's any general pattern of them having sound judgement, though, which is what WIS tends to imply.

Keep in mind that, from the word Go back in the first days of D&D, clerics were never meant to be your average priest, or even necessarily your average spellcasting priest. They were warriors for their gods, crusaders on the battlefield, spreading the faith not by proselytizing but by smiting the enemies of deity and Church.

Some of that focus has faded over the years, with the introduction of the paladin class

Absolutely. I think the traditional D&D cleric and the traditional D&D paladin are just two different mechanical devices for occupying the same space as far as trope/archetype is concerned. And paladins have always needed CHA.

In D&D terms, I think WIS is more at home with druids (oracles and advisors) or martial arts monks (perfecting minds and bodies and seeking enlightenment) than the cleric, who is a crusading miracle worker who may well have rather poor judgment, but a big personality. (As well as a big mace.)