D&D 3E/3.5 Thoughts of a 3E/4E powergamer on starting to play 5E

[Prism]

I'm not expecting much, honestly. I started this thread to discuss dealing with a system that isn't a really good fit for me and my thoughts on that. I'm not really going to change my approach, as that's just how I play. I'll make the best of it and we'll see what happens.

I would suggest that actually 5e is a pretty good fit for someone who wants to optimise their character joining an encounters group mainly because it is difficult to optimise beyond a point. You will get to build a great character and it will still play nicely in an un-optimized group (if that's what they end up being). The problems that some of the other posters are raising are much more prominent in older editions where it was very possible to build characters that could be so good at something that it ruined the game for other players.

When playing third edition we had a player join our group that built such effective combat characters that the DM had to increase the difficulty to keep combats relevant. The rest of us I would say had less fun because of it, as our characters struggled to keep up. So far I have not seen or even heard of an example of a 5e character being so optimised that they ruin the game. Surely that makes for a better system in that sense?

 

[thecasualoblivion]

This thread grew so fast that if there was an answer to my earlier question I missed it: how exactly does 5e require players to ask the DM for permission to do things? Other than a few edge cases where the language isn't clear, my experience has been that my character has a bunch of abilities, and I get to use them when I want. Where does the "asking for permission" thing come in?

A concrete example would be great.

I did answer this, and you either didn't understand or accept the answer, so I gave up trying to explain it

 

[Guest 6801328]

I did answer this, and you either didn't understand or accept the answer, so I gave up trying to explain it

Sorry! Like I said the thread grew so fast I might have missed it, and didn't see it while scanning through.

I saw the answer where you defined what you meant by agency, but I didn't see any examples so I'm still confused.

Could you point me to a post #?

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Sorry! Like I said the thread grew so fast I might have missed it, and didn't see it while scanning through.

I saw the answer where you defined what you meant by agency, but I didn't see any examples so I'm still confused.

Could you point me to a post #?

You responded to my last answer on the subject, so you have read it. As I said, I explained the matter to my satisfaction, and have given up trying to explain it further.

 

[Guest 6801328]

You responded to my last answer on the subject, so you have read it. As I said, I explained the matter to my satisfaction, and have given up trying to explain it further.

I guess that means I'm not getting an example.

 

[Avalongod]

Coming late into the game here but I agree with a lot of the OP. Also agree with a lot of posts that 5e does a lot to prevent overpowered optimized characters relative to other editions where it could be come a problem.

I do agree with the OP too that spellcasters were nerfed maybe a bit too much. I do agree that spellcasters had to be reined in a bit, no doubt, from previous editions. But I do think they overdid it a bit, particularly relative to the weak number of spell slots at higher spell levels.

 

[JonnyP71]

From a pure damage point of view that might be the case, but from playing a spellcaster (from level 1 to level 8 thus far) I have enjoyed a return to a greater range of utility spells, which are hugely effective if you have the imagination to use them.

Pointing mainly at some of the cantrips such as Prestidigidation, Thaumaturgy, Mage Hand, as well as the 2nd level spell Detect Thoughts.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Coming late into the game here but I agree with a lot of the OP. Also agree with a lot of posts that 5e does a lot to prevent overpowered optimized characters relative to other editions where it could be come a problem.

I do agree with the OP too that spellcasters were nerfed maybe a bit too much. I do agree that spellcasters had to be reined in a bit, no doubt, from previous editions. But I do think they overdid it a bit, particularly relative to the weak number of spell slots at higher spell levels.

At high levels, I still think spell-casters are more powerful. Non-spellcasting abilities just don't scale like spells do. My comment in the OP was that Cantrips are weak at early levels and combined with the low number of spell slots casters feel weak by my standards at the beginning of the game, levels 1-4 particularly.

 

[Avalongod]

At high levels, I still think spell-casters are more powerful. Non-spellcasting abilities just don't scale like spells do. My comment in the OP was that Cantrips are weak at early levels and combined with the low number of spell slots casters feel weak by my standards at the beginning of the game, levels 1-4 particularly.

Oh I agree with this, no doubt. Low level play for spell-casters is still rough, with maybe the exception of the warlock. The cantrips help, but yeah hard to keep up with melee types. Things get better actually at mid-level I think with decent slots for spells at levels 3, 4 and 5...I think having only 1 or 2 spells at the highest levels hurts though a lot. Those spells are great, don't get me wrong, can set up some nice novas. But there's so few they feel like you have to husband them a bit too much to be really powerful.

 

[dave2008]

This isn't my preferred edition by a long shot. I'd much rather play 4E, 1E/2E, or 3.5E(more or less in that order) than 5E, but due to life circumstances that have nothing to do with D&D, I find myself now starting Curse of Strahd.

I played a few sessions of 5E about a year ago, and I've been in the same room where more than a few sessions were played and I kind of watched.

Here are some thoughts:

1. My main dislike of the game comes from that I find it by far the most random of any edition of D&D, and being that random I never feel in control of my own destiny. It feels like the dice matter more than my decisions in play, or my decisions in character building. In 3E or 4E, good play could be and was often more important the dice. 1E/2E could be randomly dangerous, but that element of danger is mostly missing from 5E. 1E/2E was random but lethal, and there was a level of calculated risk involved in everything you did and your decisions thus mattered. 5E is random, but things don't seem to matter much. If you fail you fall on your face, not lose/die. This wasn't at all how I played in any previous edition.

2. Given this randomness, and my powergaming tendencies, I find myself playing selfish glass cannons. I say selfish because teamwork in 5E feels like taking one for the team, and that isn't my style. Selfishness also involves being a coward and letting other people take 5E's randomness to the face, which makes me feel better as it isn't happening to me. I say glass cannon because even high defense 5E characters seem fragile. High defense in 5E only seems to make you less fragile(while still being fragile), and from a powergaming standpoint it seems like a bad investment, better to just kill enemies faster.

3. I was a Defender roughly half the time throughout the 4E era. I never felt fragile nor felt like I was taking one for the team during any of that, while in 5E I feel both are true. So I'm not playing tanks anymore.

4. Playing support seems to feel like taking one for the team as well. Some people seem to enjoy that, but it's not my style.

5. The optimization guides on forums for 5E don't really seem as helpful for 5E as they were for 3E/4E.

6. Spellcasters seem a bit weak on the whole until cantrips start to scale

You can definitely powergame in 5e (see Celtavian, CapnZapp, & others) and totally ruin the design assumptions of 5e (which is that your not powergaming) and wreck deadly encounters without breaking a sweat. Really helps if the whole party is on board though. If that is what you are looking for, it can 100% be done. If you want to do that and be challenged, your DM will have to put in some extra work.