D&D 5E (2014) Weak Saving Throws

[BryonD]

In cliche "scary voice"

We live, necromancy for the win. Hurray for abilities that work and PCs have to actually overcome or avoid rather than just presume an "I saved" free pass.

 

[Scorpio616]

Ah sorry about that. Didn't mean to necro. It was late, brain activity was at a minimum, and I had a few tabs open from google searches.

There is nothing wrong with some call thread necromancy. This thread is VERY relevant now that folks have the monster manual in their hands and can see the save DCs PCs are expected to deal with at each Challenge rating.

Now the only thing we need to fully complete the puzzle is the DMG. Will the Cloak of resistance add a flat bonus to saves, or perhaps it might do something else, like letting a character treat all saves as proficient.

 

[Thaumaturge]

Ah sorry about that. Didn't mean to necro. It was late, brain activity was at a minimum, and I had a few tabs open from google searches.

No worries.

I'd heard about thread necromancy. Heck, I'd even seen it, but this is the first time it has happened to me.

It just makes you think.



Thaumaturge.

 

[Remathilis]

There is nothing wrong with some call thread necromancy. This thread is VERY relevant now that folks have the monster manual in their hands and can see the save DCs PCs are expected to deal with at each Challenge rating.

Now the only thing we need to fully complete the puzzle is the DMG. Will the Cloak of resistance add a flat bonus to saves, or perhaps it might do something else, like letting a character treat all saves as proficient.

Well, the ring of protection adds +1 to Ac and saves.

 

[Thank Dog]

Late to thread and there's no way I'm reading through it all so this has probably already been covered but since I have a highly inflated opinion of my own opinion, I'm going to share it regardless

I've decided that I'm ok with the saving throw disparity. As you level up, you face more and more dangerous situations and opponents. This needs to be reflected in more ways than simple hit point damage. Were all saves to keep level parity for "balance", then those situations wouldn't pose a real threat to the characters. In addition, the higher the levels of the PC's, the greater access they have to other means of mitigating, countering or curing. Simple mechanics such as saving throws are not, and should not, be the entirety of a character's options or a fall-back for lazy players.

On top of all that, it encourages players to be less focused on one particular aspect of their character and instead promotes a more well-rounded character. You can't just dump everything into one stat and focus everything on it in order to be super-awesome without suffering the consequences. You can't just choose all the big damage spells or abilities. You need to choose preventative spells, carry potions and scrolls, and plan out an attack or do research on a monster so that you can bring along whatever counters or protections you need in order to go in with the best possible chance of success.

In other words, the play dynamic between low and high levels changes. And I like it that way.

 

[Riley37]

There is nothing wrong with some call thread necromancy.

Good-aligned characters can use Necromancy, but creating Undead is a specific kind of necromancy which is far more popular among evil characters. So, as long as the thread doesn't say "graaaah...."

Anyways, yeah, a spellcaster might prepare Phantasmal Force to use against fighters and beasts (INT save), and a STR-save spell to use against rival spellcasters, and hey, now there's a game-mechanic-based incentive to vary which spell you cast in combat, which makes combat casting less boring.

It should be hard for a level 20 spellcaster to neutralize an entire party of 10th-level adventurers with a single spell. But, say, a horde of angry peasants with torches, marching towards his castle? Yeah, one spell should stop them all. Well, out of 100 villagers, on average, five of them will resist with natural 20, if it's a save/shrug spell; while if it's a save/half spell such as Fireball, then five peasants will be, um, larger piles of ash.

 

[CapnZapp]

Now that the game has been out for a while, I'm hoping to learn about your high-level experiences about this, so I'm revisiting the issue. (This was the EN thread google deemed most relevant, so I'm reusing it. It does have over three hundred posts, so please feel free to quote yourself if I'm asking a question you have already answered)

Epic threats can easily have effects with save DCs higher than 20. Weak saves stay around ±0.

What is the consensus, now (in the year 2016), with practical play experience? Has the game worked for your tier IV characters? Out of the box, that is; without you having to add in house rules?

Does the game really ask your level 20 character with a -1 modifier to make a Charisma Save with DC 23, or, say, an Intelligence Save with DC 26. Remember, that was the original concern back when this thread started in 2014.

Perhaps your high-level characters get items that simply make you have no -1 saves? Or there are buffs? Perhaps you have found it reasonably possible to use smart play to avoid or at least downplay the abilities of monsters that lead to these monster saves? Or that they are so very rare that you simply suck it up?

Or do you truly feel crushed, helpless, its-so-bad-its-not-funny?

Have the devs responded on this issue anywhere? Twitter? Convention talks? Are WotC happy with the high level saving throw math?


regards,
Zapp

 

[NeverLucky]

In my experience, weak saves are definitely a worry at high levels, but it's mitigated by the fact that you mostly just have to worry about Wisdom and Constitution saves at high levels (Dexterity can usually be mitigated with a lot of hit points, while the other three rarely come up or are just not worth caring much about), and high level characters tend to have Resilient for Constitution or Wisdom, and often Lucky to reroll if things go poorly. Yeah, sometimes you get screwed by an ability that you can't save against, but hopefully your allies make up for it.

 

[mellored]

Given the amount of offensive power and support utilities you have at high level, it's usually fine to have a weak save.

Sure, you fail against hold person, but the bardic inspiration or paladin's aura let's you over come it.
Or you counter spells it before it lands.
Or the shadow monk teleports over to the enemy and stuns him, or the barbarian hit's him really hard, and making him lose concentration.
Or the cleric brings you back to life afterwards.

Without the weakness, the game might be too easy.

 

[jodyjohnson]

Just getting into the second half of Out of the Abyss at 9th level and I expect even the good save players are going to start hating their dice. The bad save folks are preparing to sit out sessions.

Apparently the fix is to have a Bard and Paladin in every party. We didn't even have a cleric (until yesterday).

It's not bad design - it's just not to our taste.