D&D 5E Weak Saving Throws

For not casting a readied spell as a reaction later in the round, I view it as losing the opportunity for the reaction (the part that the rules state for losing your readied action), but you are still concentrating on the readied spell, so you can cast it as an action later or declare a new trigger for a reaction.

It does not make sense (to me) that once you ready a spell that it would be lost after six seconds since concentration can last much longer than that. It also does not make sense (to me) that after 6 seconds you could not change your mind as to why you will let your spell loose or even where it would be targeted.
 

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Does everyone here sit and analyse DPR and save probabilities before choosing to play a certain class? Am I alone when I'd rather choose to play an archetype based on some inspirational idea I received rather than number play?
My issue with this is that if the flavour text says one thing but the numbers prouce a different result, then I'm not actually getting to play the archetype that I wanted to play.
 

For not casting a readied spell as a reaction later in the round, I view it as losing the opportunity for the reaction (the part that the rules state for losing your readied action), but you are still concentrating on the readied spell, so you can cast it as an action later or declare a new trigger for a reaction.

It does not make sense (to me) that once you ready a spell that it would be lost after six seconds since concentration can last much longer than that. It also does not make sense (to me) that after 6 seconds you could not change your mind as to why you will let your spell loose or even where it would be targeted.

It depends on how you feel the fiction plays out. Is holding a spell already cast a relatively painless tactical choice or are you barely able to contain the arcane energies you've called into existence but refuse to release until they escape harmlessly?

In many ways it would be good to have an idea of the designers conception so each table doesn't have to negotiate aspects such as this. On the other hand, it allows table play to map to table desires by not providing a default answer that then needs to be overridden. In my view, the first option leads to simpler and more even play since the decision can have an effect on tactical balance.
 

It depends on how you feel the fiction plays out. Is holding a spell already cast a relatively painless tactical choice or are you barely able to contain the arcane energies you've called into existence but refuse to release until they escape harmlessly?

In many ways it would be good to have an idea of the designers conception so each table doesn't have to negotiate aspects such as this. On the other hand, it allows table play to map to table desires by not providing a default answer that then needs to be overridden. In my view, the first option leads to simpler and more even play since the decision can have an effect on tactical balance.

Well, we can examine it logically by its effects.

Consider this scenario:

The party are waiting to ambush a band of orcs.

The party frontline fighter/face stands out in the open to meet them. The rest of the party hide in bushes.
The archer readies an action to shoot at the first orc when the attack signal is given.
The wizard readies an action to cast Magic Missile at the three closest orcs when the signal is given

The orcs do not arrive during the first round, they arrive during the second. What happens?

The rules as written say that the trigger a Ready action creates only lasts until the start of your next turn, so both triggers vanish. The Archer can spend her action to Ready the same trigger again, and all carries on as normal. The mage... has already spent the spell slot to cast Magic Missile. It's gone. The spell is not yet wasted, though. I see three ways this could be ruled:

1) You rule that the spell fizzles. That would mean that Wizards have a tactical nerf compared to pre-5e, when they could ready actions with the same tactical power as other classes.
2) You rule that the spell must be cast using the Wizard's action or it is lost. That's still a tactical nerf, and in the example makes the wizard complicit in his own nerfing (since he either has to waste the spell slot or ruin the ambush).
3) You rule that the Wizard can keep the spell going and Ready the same trigger. That, to me, is clearly the fairest and best ruling, since it preserves pre-5e tactical utility.

Given that the ability to hold a spell partially-cast is Concentration - and there are proper rules for how that interacts with other spells - it's a very small step from 3) to allowing the wizard to cast another spell while keeping the first one imminent.

It's even nicely balanced - even if you had two readied spells, you could only actually complete one per action, and since you need to Ready to use a trigger you can't complete both of them in one round. There's no way to break the "minimum one action per spell" limit.

Allowing this sort of thing is wonderfully thematic - in fact, I think this is one of the reasons they ruled it this way. I'm imagining playing - say - a half-orc battlemaster fighter (could go Eldritch Knight, but the concept doesn't need any more magic than the cantrips), maxing out intimidation. Take the arcane initiate feat (or whatever the full version gets that's equivalent) and the fire bolt cantrip (and Shield as my once-per-day spell), then start partially casting firebolt and threatening people with my glowing hands.

It would work especially well during an interrogation - waving a glowing, smoking readied fire bolt in the face of the tied up enemy and explaining that they should start talking now...
 

Well, we can examine it logically by its effects.

Consider this scenario:

"snip"

It would work especially well during an interrogation - waving a glowing, smoking readied fire bolt in the face of the tied up enemy and explaining that they should start talking now...

Saving your explanation for future reference. I like it.
 

Well, we can examine it logically by its effects.

Consider this scenario:

The party are waiting to ambush a band of orcs.

The party frontline fighter/face stands out in the open to meet them. The rest of the party hide in bushes.
The archer readies an action to shoot at the first orc when the attack signal is given.
The wizard readies an action to cast Magic Missile at the three closest orcs when the signal is given

The orcs do not arrive during the first round, they arrive during the second. What happens?

The rules as written say that the trigger a Ready action creates only lasts until the start of your next turn, so both triggers vanish. The Archer can spend her action to Ready the same trigger again, and all carries on as normal. The mage... has already spent the spell slot to cast Magic Missile. It's gone. The spell is not yet wasted, though. I see three ways this could be ruled:

1) You rule that the spell fizzles. That would mean that Wizards have a tactical nerf compared to pre-5e, when they could ready actions with the same tactical power as other classes.
2) You rule that the spell must be cast using the Wizard's action or it is lost. That's still a tactical nerf, and in the example makes the wizard complicit in his own nerfing (since he either has to waste the spell slot or ruin the ambush).
3) You rule that the Wizard can keep the spell going and Ready the same trigger. That, to me, is clearly the fairest and best ruling, since it preserves pre-5e tactical utility.

Given that the ability to hold a spell partially-cast is Concentration - and there are proper rules for how that interacts with other spells - it's a very small step from 3) to allowing the wizard to cast another spell while keeping the first one imminent.

It's even nicely balanced - even if you had two readied spells, you could only actually complete one per action, and since you need to Ready to use a trigger you can't complete both of them in one round. There's no way to break the "minimum one action per spell" limit.

Allowing this sort of thing is wonderfully thematic - in fact, I think this is one of the reasons they ruled it this way. I'm imagining playing - say - a half-orc battlemaster fighter (could go Eldritch Knight, but the concept doesn't need any more magic than the cantrips), maxing out intimidation. Take the arcane initiate feat (or whatever the full version gets that's equivalent) and the fire bolt cantrip (and Shield as my once-per-day spell), then start partially casting firebolt and threatening people with my glowing hands.

It would work especially well during an interrogation - waving a glowing, smoking readied fire bolt in the face of the tied up enemy and explaining that they should start talking now...

What I was trying to explain was #3 with the addition that if the readied action trigger did not happen the previous round, the wizard could use its action to fire the spell.

I like the way you do interrogations.
 



Which is exactly why "Indomitable" for the Fighter should just work like Legendary Resistance

Welcome!

That's an interesting idea, for sure. Giving the fighter three automatic "outs" a day is probably a pretty good tweak. When this discussion was happening, we didn't know about Legendary Resistance, I don't believe.

(I now understand the horror of thread necromancy--I had no idea what this was in reference to. I've had to reread to figure that out, and now this thread is back. :-S )

:)

Thaumaturge.
 


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