D&D 5E Rogues without Darkvision

[LapBandit]

Darkvision for surface races makes no sense to me. Why would an elf be able to see underground? Dim light vision makes sense, but actual Darkvision seems to be too large a stretch.

In my campaign I play by the following rules:

Tieflings, Dark Elves, Svirfneblin, and Duergar = Darkvision
Mountain and Hill Dwarves, Surface Elves, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs = Dim Vision
Everyone else = Normal vision

Dim Vision = can see in dim light without disadvantage Perception, cannot see colors only grayscale

Outside under anything but full overhead cover = Dim Light
Inside or night with dim light sources = Dim Light

Dungeons that have no light are uninhabited or inhabited by creatures with no need for sight or an inability to create it. A crypt, the Underdark, inside the halls of a drow fortress where they don't need at least dim light to read and they know the enemy is local.

 

[Azurewraith]

At low levels I get it. But the rogue will quicky be at +10 or higher in stealth targeting passive perceptions in the 15 or less range outside things like beholders. I'd rather have a totally clean stealth run with a bit more risk for the rogue than consistently getting spotted but no risk to the rogue.

As the rogue you need to worry about blind sight tremmor sense etc. Who cares if the familiar gets smooshed

 

[Ahglock]

As the rogue you need to worry about blind sight tremmor sense etc. Who cares if the familiar gets smooshed

I guess it's a difference in play but I allow stealth to beat those. He's stepping lightly enough or in a way that the vibrations aren't detected or seem natural, moving in ways that they seem part of the landscape to blind sense etc. it's one of the legs up stealth has over just casting a spell. And when the enemies are alerted to your presence because you had a shoddy sneak in place of a talented one everyone is upset as you increased the odds of everyone getting killed.

 

[Azurewraith]

I guess it's a difference in play but I allow stealth to beat those. He's stepping lightly enough or in a way that the vibrations aren't detected or seem natural, moving in ways that they seem part of the landscape to blind sense etc. it's one of the legs up stealth has over just casting a spell. And when the enemies are alerted to your presence because you had a shoddy sneak in place of a talented one everyone is upset as you increased the odds of everyone getting killed.

Aye I lean the other way they auto spot you. I find it keeps stealth in check as like you said above its very easy to Jack your passive stealth up needing only minor assistance from the dice.

 

[Ahglock]

Aye I lean the other way they auto spot you. I find it keeps stealth in check as like you said above its very easy to Jack your passive stealth up needing only minor assistance from the dice.

I just impose disadvantage. I feel the rogue is supposed to sneak up on enemies. If these senses were more rare I might lean that way. But way too many creatures would come off my use list if it caused a auto fail. I'd want rogues to auto fail in stealth about as often as I want to blanket large areas in a anti magic field.

edit I'm not sure that's coming across as intended. Comparing it to blanket anti magic is a bit far. More like fire immune be a fire focussed sorcerer. My point is if something is a players thing I don't want them to auto fail very often. These abilities are linked to many of the cool enemies and I don't want to limit my use of those cool enemies that much. If a rogue picks stealth as one of this few skills he's super good at I want it to succeed most of the time and almost never auto fail.

 

[Guest 6801328]

If a rogue picks stealth as one of this few skills he's super good at I want it to succeed most of the time and almost never auto fail.

Yeah, same. If there's somebody at the table who really wants to play the sneaky guy who always gets the drop on enemies, and he spends his points that way, it's not game-breaking to let him get away with it.

Super-sneaky stealth is a very common trope from myth, fiction, film...seems strange to allow elves and magic and dragons and undead and then be all, "Oh, but in reality you wouldn't be able to sneak up on that guard."

 

[Saeviomagy]

Yeah, same. If there's somebody at the table who really wants to play the sneaky guy who always gets the drop on enemies, and he spends his points that way, it's not game-breaking to let him get away with it.

Super-sneaky stealth is a very common trope from myth, fiction, film...seems strange to allow elves and magic and dragons and undead and then be all, "Oh, but in reality you wouldn't be able to sneak up on that guard."

It's the standard problem with rogues and fighters in D&D. Wizards, clerics, druids etc can do anything, but as soon as you want to try something amazing with a non-magical character, everyone suddenly says "oh, but in real life you couldn't do X", where X is usually something that is completely possible. It's so solidly ingrained that even the designers have built it in. Take a look at movement speeds vs real world marathon records, or jump distances vs real world long jump records. Have a quick squizz at a tutorial for picking a modern lock (doable without training or proper tools), then look at what ancient locks were like (laughable), then look at the lockpicking rules which suggest picking a lock without the proper tools and training isn't possible.

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

Some exotic senses (like echolocation 'blindsense') could be hidden from pretty much the same way sight can, but tremorsense I'd expect to be pretty un-foolable. If you have a sense of vibrations in the ground so refined that it can substitute for sight, I think a moving PC-sized creature will be noticeable no matter how lightly they step.

It's the standard problem with rogues and fighters in D&D. Wizards, clerics, druids etc can do anything, but as soon as you want to try something amazing with a non-magical character, everyone suddenly says "oh, but in real life you couldn't do X", where X is usually something that is completely possible.

That's a good point.

OTOH I've seen in 5E the Rogue hide-as-a-bonus-action thing can be really crazy powerful in games where Stealth is interpreted generously/favorably.

Take a look at movement speeds vs real world marathon records,

That's because D&D movement speeds assume 'combat' movement, avoiding obstacles and moving through a dangerous environment, rather than a running track.

I believe this was explicit (or made more clear, anyway) in early editions.

Also, it's a matter of the game's granularity - Speed is the same for all humans unless a class feature or something modifies it.

The given speeds seem about right (5 ft./second when you're doing something else, 10 ft./second when dashing) under those conditions.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

As the rogue you need to worry about blind sight tremmor sense etc. Who cares if the familiar gets smooshed

Well, it is 10 gold pieces. That's probably two years' taxes for a peasant. (5 gp head tax per year is reasonable given PHB prices.) It may not be a big deal to a filthy rich PC, but to put it in real terms pretend that each time you cast Find Familiar costs $500 to $1000. Getting him smooshed is like having to buy yourself a new smartphone/laptop. Once or twice might not be a big deal... by the fifth or sixth time it's starting to get real old.

 

[Azurewraith]

Well, it is 10 gold pieces. That's probably two years' taxes for a peasant. (5 gp head tax per year is reasonable given PHB prices.) It may not be a big deal to a filthy rich PC, but to put it in real terms pretend that each time you cast Find Familiar costs $500 to $1000. Getting him smooshed is like having to buy yourself a new smartphone/laptop. Once or twice might not be a big deal... by the fifth or sixth time it's starting to get real old.

It's cool the guy that smooshed my familiar was likely carrying/guarding atleast 10x that amount. Besides sir hooter is a valued member of the party and gets his own cut! I wouldn't waste my gold!