D&D 5E Berserker - How does it really compare to Totem Warrior?

[hejtmane]

But not with literally just 1 level of exhaustion.

Regarding ChrisCarlson's post:

Wow, congrats, you saw a 1 in 400 chance occurrence. If you're saying that disadvantage has such a small impact, then knock your socks off. For the rest of us that passed basic mathematics, we'll prefer to take our 1/2 damage from nearly all sources over a cumulative -5 to Initiative, Grapple chances, Perception (PP goes down by -5), etc. to get a bonus action attack that a feat you'll probably be picking up anyways (Polearm Master and/or GWM) would provide you with either guaranteed or semi-regularity.

But hey, if you go to LA Strategiecons, chances are pretty decent we can end up at the same table. You bring your disadvantaged Barbarian and I'll bring my not-disadvantaged one. Let's see how it plays out.

If you are going tavern brawler for the grapple you should go totem because you are wasting your bonus action as a berserk (imo)

 

[RulesJD]

The Berserker only needs to use Frenzy once in his entire lifetime for his lifetime DPR to average higher than a similarly built Totem Barbarian. Or more reasonably, once per long rest. The cost of 1 instance of exhaustion is far from crippling.

Well by that logic...

The Bear Totem Barbarian only needs to survive 1 round of combat longer than the Frenzy Barb to have his lifetime DPR to be higher. Because he's still alive. And let's face it, especially as you level and face higher CR mobs, that's going to be a significantly more likely occurrence.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

Wow, congrats, you saw a 1 in 400 chance occurrence.

I know, right? It was awesome. The whole table cheered. Both times it's happened.

If you're saying that disadvantage has such a small impact, then knock your socks off. For the rest of us that passed basic mathematics, we'll prefer to take our 1/2 damage from nearly all sources over a cumulative -5 to Initiative, Grapple chances, Perception (PP goes down by -5), etc.

Bounded accuracy. So, nope. Not true*.

to get a bonus action attack that a feat you'll probably be picking up anyways (Polearm Master and/or GWM) would provide you with either guaranteed or semi-regularity.

So what feat do I get while you are wasting yours picking up the bonus attack I already have?

But hey, if you go to LA Strategiecons, chances are pretty decent we can end up at the same table.

"Go to"? I should hope so. I'm one of the guys running the thing.

You bring your disadvantaged Barbarian and I'll bring my not-disadvantaged one. Let's see how it plays out.

Try to avoid white-room shenanigans. Things don't happen in a neat little vacuum. Things led up to me having exhaustion and you not. How did I get to that point? And why are you not exhausted?

And, again. Because of BA, having disadvantage is not a "lose button". You'll manage. Trust me.



(*Especially the part where you claim disadvantage is equal to -5. Per basic math, I believe your claim is inaccurate. Except for one thing: passive perception. But none of the other things you listed are passive in nature. And not everyone is likely missing that perception, so your group as a whole is probably still going to be okay.)

 

[Lillika]

What about a wolf totem? I doubt that is an accurate assessment.



That's reasonable. Can you point me to some numbers for the effects of advantage and disadvantage on damage? A good link would do it. I've generally avoided advantage/disadvantage math because its effect relies on the relationship between attack bonus and AC, which are difficult to predict. That being said, we are talking about the norm, and I'm sure a baseline can be developed, which would be useful for my considerations.

I just figure out the odds of missing both attacks then subtracting that by 1 for the percent of hitting with advantage. For example 5/20 to hit with advantage, is 15/20 or 3/4 for missing with one attack. In this case hitting would be 3/4 x 3/4 = 9/16. 1-9/16 is 7/16. Multiply this by average damage on a hit to get average damage done. I apologize if this is not what you are asking. Granted Battle Master Fighters are better at abusing GWM than Barbarians because of Precision Attack, but with advantage GWF starts to scale up in damage. I know as a player I look for every way to grant it to my allies and myself. My current fighter is a a Shield Master and a Battle Master with Trip, but this is mainly because the party is very melee heavy. Also Bless and Bardic Inspiration can greatly impact GWM. This is why I say that optimization is much more about who is in your party and giving which buffs, than which feat does greater DPR in a vacuum.

I guess what drew my attention to this thread, is that I have thought a very lot about this topic and my conclusion was that both are very very viable. But there are a few assumptions, first, I like to make characters that are playable and good all the way up to lvl 20. This first assumption makes Retaliation very nice looking. Second I like to have no obvious weaknesses, while making a major impact on the battlefield, (this is one of the reasons that I like Mindless Rage). I see some of the strengths of the Barbarian being the highest hit point total in the game, and the fact that their rage makes them very tanky. The mitigation while raging (even the limited non bear version), makes them a good in your face character. This in your face style and role doesn't always match up to some of the benefits from Polearm Mastery. With this in mind I see Frenzies Berserker as a good alternative and a very viable option for this type of Tanky character. Yes you could tank very very well with the Bear Totem, but I view the Frenzed Berserker as a way to do this as well.

 

[Bardbarian]

The two subclasses vary in value depending on the incredibly high number of variants in D&D. I personally think they stack up much neater when you compare level 3 options to level 6 options. The two barbarian option get their low level boosts at different levels which is ok. Comparing the resist all vs the immunity to charm and fear is a much better comparison. Likewise the Frenzy compared to the situational boons of the totem barb are better matched up.

In the case of dmg vs mental defenses, wisdom saves are often the Achillies heel of a brute character like many barbarians tend to be, so I would weigh the resistance and immunity features at a similar usefulness depending on whether the enemy attacks with damage or control.

In the case of the situational bonuses, the Berserker comes out ahead initially but has a corresponding backlash to keep it from completely outshining the Totemic barb.

Both will vary on the DM and Player use of the three pillars and their prevalence within a campaign. Overall they are both excellent options although I would steer a newer player towards the Totem barb because the less volatile nature of the class features. The Frenzy feature either requires a more experienced meta gamer to know when to use it or a more experienced roleplayer to use it when ooc they may not want the penalties. It is this voltile nature to the class I find compelling and is drawing me in to make a Berzerker for my next character.

 

[Lillika]

The two subclasses vary in value depending on the incredibly high number of variants in D&D. I personally think they stack up much neater when you compare level 3 options to level 6 options. The two barbarian option get their low level boosts at different levels which is ok. Comparing the resist all vs the immunity to charm and fear is a much better comparison. Likewise the Frenzy compared to the situational boons of the totem barb are better matched up.

In the case of dmg vs mental defenses, wisdom saves are often the Achillies heel of a brute character like many barbarians tend to be, so I would weigh the resistance and immunity features at a similar usefulness depending on whether the enemy attacks with damage or control.

In the case of the situational bonuses, the Berserker comes out ahead initially but has a corresponding backlash to keep it from completely outshining the Totemic barb.

Both will vary on the DM and Player use of the three pillars and their prevalence within a campaign. Overall they are both excellent options although I would steer a newer player towards the Totem barb because the less volatile nature of the class features. The Frenzy feature either requires a more experienced meta gamer to know when to use it or a more experienced roleplayer to use it when ooc they may not want the penalties. It is this voltile nature to the class I find compelling and is drawing me in to make a Berzerker for my next character.

I really like how you noted that the Berserker needs a more experienced meta gamer or experienced roleplayer, to get the most out of. This was somewhere in my mind, but wasn't articulated as well you put it.

 

[pkt77242]

I think disadvantage gets up played way too much. An action is certainly less optimal with disadvantage, however some are calling it crippling, and I don't see it that way. Not Mathematically and not in actual play.

While I would probably agree that it isn't crippling, the average difference over 1000 runs is 3 (well according to the quick excel sheet I set up), 10 vs 7. While a difference of 3 isn't crippling, it is significant and can drastically change the outcome.

 

[Leatherhead]

While I would probably agree that it isn't crippling, the average difference over 1000 runs is 3 (well according to the quick excel sheet I set up), 10 vs 7. While a difference of 3 isn't crippling, it is significant and can drastically change the outcome.

Is that the difference between disadvantage and normal, or disadvantage and advantage?

 

[DaveDash]

We're going through Tyranny of Dragons (currently at Rise of Tiamat) and once through the entire campaign did our Berserker Barbarian actually get close to death - fighting one of the Dragons. In other words, the Bear Totem abilities have been basically wasted, maybe with the exception of less resource consumption in terms of healing hitdice required.

However the extra damage output he can use when frenzy is amazing, and to be honest 1 level of exhaustion really isn't a big deal. Also my Cleric now has greater restoration.

Also not being charmed of frightened when fighting Dragons is pretty damn amazing... Pretty sure that is a berserker ability and not standard Barbarian.

Not that I think the Bear Totem Barbarian (or other ones are bad). They're probably slightly better. The difference really is so marginal that only pure powergamers would care, and 5th edition isn't really that kind of game to be honest.

Heck we have a Wild Sorcerer which IMO is inferior to the other Sorcs, but still a heck of a lot of fun. We all groan and duck every time he casts a spell.

 

[CapnZapp]

So, you want to require that the two characters make identical choices in feats, even though they were allowed to make a different choice in subclass? Isn't that a bit of a double-standard?

What? No.

I don't "require" anything of the sort.

I'm saying that to make an apples to apples comparison, you change ONE variable and keep everything else the same. Far too many posters muddle the issue by comparing X+Y to A+B.

Feel free to compare
a) A Totem Barb with a Berserker Barb (featless game).
b) A Totem Barb with a Berserker Barb, both with GWM feat
c) A Totem Barb with a Berserker Barb, both with Polearm feat
and so on...

THEN you can add comparisons between a and b, and a and c, and b and c.

Say, the A Barbs get Strength 20, while the B and C Barbs get Strength 18 (to account for their one feat).

So I'm not "requiring" anything.