D&D 5E Berserker - How does it really compare to Totem Warrior?

[CapnZapp]

My analysis is:

Berserker barbarian is balanced on the assumption Exhaustion is "not too bad".

If you share this evaluation, go ahead and Berserk!

If you on the other hand find Exhaustion horrifyingly crippling, to the extent the rules only make sense if the Berserker designer worked with a draft version of Exhaustion that is much changed in the final rules, you stay the frak away from that subclass.

It really is that simple.

 

[Giant2005]

No, the bottom line is nowhere near the bottom until you factor in the crippling cost of exhaustion.

The Berserker only needs to use Frenzy once in his entire lifetime for his lifetime DPR to average higher than a similarly built Totem Barbarian. Or more reasonably, once per long rest. The cost of 1 instance of exhaustion is far from crippling.

 

[CapnZapp]

If you feel you're getting enough from your choice of subclass by that reasoning, Giant, I won't stop you. Good luck with your Berserker!

 

[CapnZapp]

For the rest of us, I'll mention that I would never assume I am in full control over exhaustion. That entire analysis breaks down when circumstances slap a SECOND level of exhaustion on you (and everyone else gets their first).

Suddenly not only are you on the verge of being functionally crippled, but you entire choice of subclass has been shut down for the whole of next day.

No thank you.

 

[CapnZapp]

If the spell cost of removing exhaustion were lowered to a reasonable level, or indeed if the cost of Frenzy was simply removed, then I would consider playing a Berserker.

 

[Eric V]

For the rest of us, I'll mention that I would never assume I am in full control over exhaustion. That entire analysis breaks down when circumstances slap a SECOND level of exhaustion on you (and everyone else gets their first).

Suddenly not only are you on the verge of being functionally crippled, but you entire choice of subclass has been shut down for the whole of next day.

No thank you.

Yeah, I tend to think this is the biggest issue right here, along with the spell required to address it. It's baffling why it requires such a high level spell to remove one level of exhaustion...

 

[Jester David]

...and your point, dear Jester, is...?

Two points of data tell you nothing if you don't know the range for the X and Y axis.

That knowing how much better one subclass of barbarian is to another tells you nothing without knowing where the barbarian is in terms of classes and how much the subclasses affect and alter the potential of the class.
If the barbarian independent of subclass is at the top of the class spectrum, than having one weaker subclass doesn't hurt it. If it's near the bottom, then a weak subclass just makes it all the harder to keep up. Similarly, if you apply the range of power between other subclasses and classes it could either shrink or grow the scale (the X axis in this point). If other classes vary far more wildly than the two subclasses, it flattens the variance, making the difference less dramatic.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

An even more apples to apples comparison is to give both options the SAME feat.

Gosh, y'all make this much harder than it needs to be...

So, you want to require that the two characters make identical choices in feats, even though they were allowed to make a different choice in subclass? Isn't that a bit of a double-standard?

No, the bottom line is nowhere near the bottom until you factor in the crippling cost of exhaustion.

Also, this. I'm not sure you can make your claim of "crippling" stick.

Having played a great deal, and seen all manner of PCs saddled with varying levels of exhaustion, I would not say they were "crippled". "Impacted," sure. But I've seen enough PCs, even with multiple degrees of exhaustion, succeed.

Furthermore, I have never seen exhaustion (of any degree*) cost a player his/her character.



(*Obviously, no one I know has ever reached the final level which results in death. Because that would, of course, do it...)

 

[hejtmane]

It really goes to heck when you have back to back adventuring days. But I think one of the big issues with frenzy outside the exhaustion is its a bonus attack and there are lots of ways to gain bonus attacks if feats are a option on the table. It also basically forces you out of two weapon style which you may just like.

But feat wise
great weapon master generates a lot of bonus attacks and this feat seems made for a berserker.
Pole arm master bonus attack though just at d4 damage
Shield master bonus attack for knock down.
Tavern brawler bonus attack for grapple.(and yes I took this on my barbarian)
And I'm sure there are spells and other classes that can grant them to you.

I guess you get to ignore those feats more easily and go pure attribute boosts? But it's a feature you use limited times per day and in those fights the gain is mostly replicated by a feat. It's not that great.

But you can freely ignore it and still be fine.

I have one that uses Bear Totem Goliath with Tavern brawler and he has controlled several fights with the grappling

 

[Lillika]

Just a quick note. My comparison involved taking the feat in lieu of an Ability Score Increase, which affected how fast the character reached their maximum strength score.

I suppose I could compare to GWM, but that is one of only two or three feats that I do feel is overpowered. Plus, the bonus action trade-off is an important point of comparison, which GWM mostly misses.

I realize this a discussion about balance, so feeling something is overpowered is not off-limits, but it does strike me as funny that you feel GWM is OP, while not Polearm Mastery. Also GWM is better in the hands of Berserker than Polearm Mastery is (this could be debated), so GWM needs to be in the discussion if we are talking about balance.

When I was making a fighter, I wanted to really get a sense for weapon balance, in this process I had to look at feats involved with each weapon choice. The feats that I looked at, were GWM, Shield Master, Polearm Master, and Dual Wielder. I also considered a combination of GWM and Polearm Master. I ran average outgoing damage and incoming damage, based on my group makeup (melee rogue and paly with GW). At lvls 5 and 10 (and just a little at 20) with both advantage and no advantage, and also burst rounds vs non burst rounds. My conclusion was that GWF and Polearm Master were very good, but definitely in the same ballpark with sword and shield with Shield Master. The reason this is relevant, is that in my numbers the real equalizer is not Polearm Master, it is GWM. I realize that you find it OP, but it is this feat that makes the Berserker on par with the Totem Warrior. Any discussion about balance between these 2 paths needs to look at GWM.

S'mon that is a very nice set up, and very damaging. Depending on the situation it can be more or less damage than taking a +2 Str instead of Polearm Master. The real bonus is in attacking from 10ft and then taking an Op attack if they engage. This will negate the advantage given Reckless Attack, but also it takes you out melee contact with the enemy and does make you less of a tank for the party (if tanking was was your point). Sentinel could also be used instead to help keep the focus on you.

If we keep GWM as the focus, then Berserker gives a viable alternative to Polearm Master (even though a Berserker could very easily pick this up as well, just they do get a little less out of it than a Totem Warrior). The real strengths of the Berserker imo, are Mindless Rage (mostly because it is reactive and stops the the most nasty effects on a melee class, fear and charm (dominate is a charm effect btw), and Retaliation (I know it is lvl 14, but it is sooo good).

Another point to consider in DnD is that not all fights are as important. While the player might not know which is and which isn't. There are many times when it is obvious and the players know when the big fight is. In 4e this is when the players would blow all their action points and daily powers. While the days of action points and dailies are mostly gone, the Barbarian does shine in this situation, especially the Berserker. With Frenzy and GWM the Berserker is a better burst damager than the Totem Warrior. So when it really matters, the Berserker is doing more damage.