D&D 5E Berserker - How does it really compare to Totem Warrior?

[Leatherhead]

Why are you comparing apples to oranges?

Instead try comparing Totem and Berserk Barbarians, with and without a feat that enables bonus attacks.

You can't compare a class ability to a feat. The whole point of feats is that they're added on top of everything else; a character with a combat-related feat should do more damage than a character without one. I mean, the frenzying barbarian could also be using Polearm Master. It's like comparing a naked character to one with magic weapons. You need to compare class ability to class ability (and even then, most of them aren't 1:1 comparisons.)

Don't shoot down this math "as apples and oranges" so quickly. This is basically the same match up as a Battlerager VS Berserker comparison, given that the Battlerager's bonus attack is also a d4, and they get to use any weapon with it.

 

[Ashrym]

Don't shoot down this math "as apples and oranges" so quickly. This is basically the same match up as a Battlerager VS Berserker comparison, given that the Battlerager's bonus attack is also a d4, and they get to use any weapon with it.

The bonus attack damage still works out as more damage for the berserker when it matters instead of more damage in general most other times when comparing battlerager to berserker. The bonus attack from frenzy does more damage than the bonus attack from battlerager armor or polearm master. It's also available in situations where the armor isn't being worn and doesn't give disadvantage on checks.

Getting back to my earlier comment, if polearm master is added to totem barbarian in a damage calculation then it's reasonable to give great weapon master in it's place to the battlerager and berserker, putting both ahead of the polearm master totem barbarian because of reckless attack. That would be more of an apples to apples comparison because both are given a feat.

The only thing that was demonstrated was that polearm master isn't a good feat for some barbarian subclasses while it is for totem.

 

[Giant2005]

Getting back to my earlier comment, if polearm master is added to totem barbarian in a damage calculation then it's reasonable to give great weapon master in it's place to the battlerager and berserker, putting both ahead of the polearm master totem barbarian because of reckless attack. That would be more of an apples to apples comparison because both are given a feat.

Or just give the Berserker Polearm Master too.
It doesn't really matter what feats you give the Berserker and Totem Warrior - as long as the feats are identical, the Berserker will always come out ahead from a damage perspective.
The bottom line is that having the same damage most of the time, and more damage some of the time; will always result in a higher average damage for the Berserker.

 

[Ahglock]

Or just give the Berserker Polearm Master too.
It doesn't really matter what feats you give the Berserker and Totem Warrior - as long as the feats are identical, the Berserker will always come out ahead from a damage perspective.
The bottom line is that having the same damage most of the time, and more damage some of the time; will always result in a higher average damage for the Berserker.

Yup they do. Not by much, but they do. Whether stacking exhaustion is worth 8ish hp a fight I'm not so sure on. Rage should be a non action action. I get where they are going with you only have one bonus action but in too many cases it overly weakens a lot of things. This isn't frenzy specific. But giving up a bonus action in round one very easily might reduce your overall fight damage in short fights and in average gifts you make out but not by much. They rolled your defense into race as well so it's not a bad option but not really what I think most people think of for raging barbarian.

 

[Jester David]

Forming a comparison between two points of data is not particularly useful. Without a comparison or baseline it's impossible to form any meaningful conclusion. Knowing <class X> is better than <class Y> tells you nothing without knowing if both are above the average, both are below, one is above, etc.

 

[The_Furious_Puffin]

The subclasses should be balanced against each other though. Every reasonable choice in the game should have the same overall utility/empowerment of the player.

You correctly point out that it makes it harder to work out how to fix it (should you nerf Totem, buff Bezerker, nerf both or buff both), but knowing that there is a meaningful discrepancy tells you there is an issue you need to address.

The bonus attack damage still works out as more damage for the berserker when it matters instead of more damage in general most other times when comparing battlerager to berserker. The bonus attack from frenzy does more damage than the bonus attack from battlerager armor or polearm master. It's also available in situations where the armor isn't being worn and doesn't give disadvantage on checks.

This assumes btw you never misjudge the end of the adventuring day and always get off three Frenzies and never go into a fight with three levels of exhaustion.

Anyway it's fairly easy to go back to his assumptions and put what you're asking for together. What do you think a good level GWM 8 Bezerker build looks like?

 

[Saeviomagy]

The main problem with frenzy is the exhaustion. Because unless your DM is gracious enough to tell you at the beginning of a fight (when you first rage) that

a) this fight is going to be your toughest fight of the day
and
b) this fight is going to be your last fight of the day

then you have hamstrung yourself for the rest of the day for a potentially dubious bonus.

My suggestion would be to divorce frenzy from rage, making it something you do in addition to a rage (as a free action, extending the duration of the rage). I would also allow a frenzying barbarian to ignore the effects of exhaustion.

That combination gives you a resource that you can actually use when you need it, and gives it a cost that is actually worth paying more than once per day (plus the possibility of a barbarian who frenzies himself to death).

 

[Ancalagon]

My suggestion would be to divorce frenzy from rage, making it something you do in addition to a rage

... Isn't is the case already? Isn't a bezerker free to rage without frenzying?

 

[Saeviomagy]

... Isn't is the case already? Isn't a berzerker free to rage without frenzying?

Yes, but my point was to have the reverse: being able to frenzy after you've already started raging. You can start a fight, see it going south and then kick it up a notch with frenzy, instead of having to decide at the same time that you rage.

 

[Ancalagon]

Yes, but my point was to have the reverse: being able to frenzy after you've already started raging. You can start a fight, see it going south and then kick it up a notch with frenzy, instead of having to decide at the same time that you rage.

... isn't it the case already?