D&D 5E Berserker - How does it really compare to Totem Warrior?

[Saeviomagy]

Nope - it says "you can go into frenzy when you rage". I read that as being different to "while you are raging...". Especially since entering a rage requires a bonus action, while frenzying requires... ? No action?

 

[Lillika]

I don't see a problem with it as is, the Barbarian is a risk vs reward class anyways, and the frenzy ability is even more so. I have thought about making one, that carried a shield and sword, and then when she raged, she would drop both and grab the 2-hander slung over her back and go nuts. It is a fun class that you have to think about when to rage and when the frenzy.

On another note, the comparison between the lvl 3 totem bear rage ability and mindless rage is not just resist all damage, vs charm and fear immunity. There is a key difference, the resist all damage is not reactive. Lets say a dragon goes first, and dragon breaths. Unless the bear totem barbarian is currently raging (he or she won't be, if the dragon goes first), the barbarian will take full damage on a failed save. While if the same dragon did frightful presence (might be the wrong name) the berserker, could rage in response and suppress the effect of the fear.

On another note, charm and fear effects are among the absolute worst things that you could do to a melee character, while damage is actually what the barbarian takes better any other, having the highest hit dice, so I would rather have immunity to fear and charm effects than damage resistance.

In most cased the actual best classes, subclasses and feats are actually far more dependent on the party composition than in which one deals more damage against a practice dummy. For example in a melee heavy party the totem wolf ability would outshine most things. A ranged party might do better when a bear totem ability. In a party with a bard who saves Calm Emotions just for fear and charm, mindless rage wouldn't be as beneficial. In a party that can give lots of advantage, Great Weapon Master is far better than Polearm Master, and in such a party a variant human would probably be better with GWM and the Berserker path, since they can take more advantage of the extra attacks with the great weapon.

 

[Ancalagon]

Nope - it says "you can go into frenzy when you rage". I read that as being different to "while you are raging...". Especially since entering a rage requires a bonus action, while frenzying requires... ? No action?

Well you read it that way, but I read it as "when you start raging, or when you are already raging". I really see no problem with adding some flexibility to it.

 

[S'mon]

In a party that can give lots of advantage, Great Weapon Master is far better than Polearm Master

Just use Reckless Attack from 10' away and do both - then step back 5'. If foe follows up to attack you back, they eat an opportunity attack thanks to PM as they enter your reach.

When my group is fighting enemies fewer in number than us, my polearm master gwm
barbarian can easily do 60+ damage/round (at 5th level) and not be attacked at all if I don't want to be.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Everyone comparing polearm mastery to replicate the bonus action attack is missing a vital point in the comparison. The frenzy ability doesn't require a feat while polearm master styles do. That means those comparisons have been a totem barbarian with a feat versus a berserker barbarian without a feat. We shouldn't miss the opportunity cost.

Each of you needs to ask yourself what else you just gave up in that comparison that wasn't considered. ;-)

Start adding in equal numbers of feats if a person wants to compare.

Just a quick note. My comparison involved taking the feat in lieu of an Ability Score Increase, which affected how fast the character reached their maximum strength score.

I suppose I could compare to GWM, but that is one of only two or three feats that I do feel is overpowered. Plus, the bonus action trade-off is an important point of comparison, which GWM mostly misses.

 

[CapnZapp]

Everyone comparing polearm mastery to replicate the bonus action attack is missing a vital point in the comparison. The frenzy ability doesn't require a feat while polearm master styles do. That means those comparisons have been a totem barbarian with a feat versus a berserker barbarian without a feat. We shouldn't miss the opportunity cost.

Each of you needs to ask yourself what else you just gave up in that comparison that wasn't considered. ;-)

Start adding in equal numbers of feats if a person wants to compare.

Everyone isn't doing that.

I'm not saying berserkers are without value in featless games.

I AM saying there's a hidden trap in the way berserking works - most experienced minmaxers will avoid a bonus attack enabler with such a hefty cost.

Heck, even two-weapon fighting looks attractive compared to frenzy!

 

[CapnZapp]

Don't shoot down this math "as apples and oranges" so quickly. This is basically the same match up as a Battlerager VS Berserker comparison, given that the Battlerager's bonus attack is also a d4, and they get to use any weapon with it.

Why are you complicating things instead of taking the advice to heart?

I suggest you first sort out the analysis of PHB options before we bring SCAG into this.

Thank you

 

[CapnZapp]

The bonus attack damage still works out as more damage for the berserker when it matters instead of more damage in general most other times when comparing battlerager to berserker. The bonus attack from frenzy does more damage than the bonus attack from battlerager armor or polearm master. It's also available in situations where the armor isn't being worn and doesn't give disadvantage on checks.

Getting back to my earlier comment, if polearm master is added to totem barbarian in a damage calculation then it's reasonable to give great weapon master in it's place to the battlerager and berserker, putting both ahead of the polearm master totem barbarian because of reckless attack. That would be more of an apples to apples comparison because both are given a feat.

The only thing that was demonstrated was that polearm master isn't a good feat for some barbarian subclasses while it is for totem.

An even more apples to apples comparison is to give both options the SAME feat.

Gosh, y'all make this much harder than it needs to be...

 

[CapnZapp]

Or just give the Berserker Polearm Master too.
It doesn't really matter what feats you give the Berserker and Totem Warrior - as long as the feats are identical, the Berserker will always come out ahead from a damage perspective.
The bottom line is that having the same damage most of the time, and more damage some of the time; will always result in a higher average damage for the Berserker.

No, the bottom line is nowhere near the bottom until you factor in the crippling cost of exhaustion.

 

[CapnZapp]

Forming a comparison between two points of data is not particularly useful. Without a comparison or baseline it's impossible to form any meaningful conclusion. Knowing <class X> is better than <class Y> tells you nothing without knowing if both are above the average, both are below, one is above, etc.

...and your point, dear Jester, is...?