D&D 5E Berserker - How does it really compare to Totem Warrior?

[Dausuul]

Feats have nothing to do with anything. We're comparing berserker to totem warrior here. Spirit Walker, Aspect of the Beast, and Intimidating Presence are little more than decoration; Retaliation seems pretty well balanced with Totemic Attunement. So, assuming 4 rages per day and not frenzying more than once, that leaves us with:

• Once per day, you get a free attack as a bonus action each round for the duration of combat. You gain a level of exhaustion afterward.
• 4 times per day, you can become immune to charmed and frightened for the duration of combat.

versus

• 4 times per day, you can gain resistance to damage other than slashing, bludgeoning, and piercing for the duration of combat.

That's the comparison. Seems pretty balanced to me.

 

[CapnZapp]

The bear totem has been completely blown out of proportion as has the berserker exhaustion.

The limited number of rages per day means that the bear totem damage resistance isn't available more often than the standard damage resistance berserkers still. In my experience, the more common types of attacks regular rage resist make it good enough compared to the situational additional resistance. Charm and fear immunity while raging that all berserkers get at 6th level is worthwhile as a comparable situational protection that totem barbarians have as a choice. Bear totem damage resistance is good but not necessarily better than regular resistance plus immunities when either is situational.

Intimidating presence is okay even if the DC tends to be lower than spells because of the CHA based DC but keying off a WIS save helps.

Retaliation is good. Opponents are either restricted in attacking the barbarian or the barbarian damage goes up.

Frenzy is the ability that comes under fire but it's an active choice ability. The berserker can still rage without going into a frenzy and have his or her other benefits. One level of exhaustion (which isn't that penalizing) that will disappear after one long rest indicates it's meant to be used as a daily ability in the final battle. Somehow adding the options of using the ability outside of the final battle and/or multiple times per day to add some additional flexibility at a cost turned the basic concept from useful to poor in some eyes. Just following the intent and ignoring the additional options beyond one use in the end fight preserves it's value.

There's a flaw in logic by detractors based on sense of entitlement and thinking that just because something can be used more often it should be usable more often, which is assumptive. The ability is similar in concept to overchannel.

It would indeed have been better if it only worked once per long rest, if only because then it would be clear as day what a craptactular choice it is.

For the rest of us, just let the Berserker berserk as often as he wants (within rages). It's not that powerful compared to the options you DON'T get when you choose Berserker...

 

[CapnZapp]

You should try comparing the berserker to the battlerager sometime.

Please do.

(It's impossible to tell which you feel is better)

 

[CapnZapp]

Thanks for all the responses.

I'm not here to tell anyone that they are wrong to enjoy the Berserker as-is. I'm not a super-power-optimizer either. But I like to understand my game balance, and I like to make sure my fixes are rare, simple, and do what I intend them to do.

First, I should say that I'm not convinced that immunity to charmed and frightened is as impressive as some opinions are saying. I've classified them into the "rest of the sub-class" that appears to be balanced with Berserker, as mentioned in my earlier post. Also, it seems to me that something is definitely broken if you take a sub-class and don't use its primary defining feature.

So I did some math. I compared the Frenzy feature to the Polearm Master feat. (I assumed the Polearm Master would get to use their reaction for an attack one in every five rounds. It is likely to be more often than that.) It is a good feat, but it can't be called broken without other shenanigans. I took it at 4th level, because I am not assuming a variant human. I assumed the barbarian begins with a Strength 16 and maxes it as soon as possible. I assumed the Berserker is wielding a greatsword and the Polearm Master wields a glaive. I compared the damage increase over a standard greatsword-wielding barbarian with neither Frenzy nor Polearm Master, presenting results as a percentage increase over the baseline. I figured this out for 8 different adventuring day configurations, and using Frenzy either 1, 2, or 3 times. This is what it looks like.

View attachment 76534

When Frenzy leaves the character more than a point or two behind Polearm Master in daily damage percentage increase I indicate it in red. When the opposite is true, I indicate it in blue. If they are very close, I leave it in black. This is an average over levels 3-20. (I checked to see if the values remained the same if 20th-level were removed from the equation. There were some minor changes in favor of Frenzy, but nothing sufficient to change the colors.)

I did not take into account the reduced combat effectiveness of the Berserker after the first Frenzy due to reduced initiative and speed, but this would drag their numbers down by a little bit more (turning most or all of those blacks red).

What I see here is that the only place the Berserker's Frenzy shines is if they have a very short adventuring day and Frenzy on just about every fight.

Only Frenzying once per day will leave them in the dust compared to a barbarian with the Polearm Master feat, and will have a pretty pathetic overall damage increase in general. It would make this feature utterly insignificant compared to other subclass options.

I submit that this is likely not what the designers intended, and that it is sufficiently imbalanced compared to the alternative as to be a legitimate objective problem.

In the final column, I've provided a comparison of how much damage is increased if the Berserker can Frenzy on every rage without suffering any Exhaustion. They have great nova potential in a short adventuring day, but classes are balanced around a longer day (just ask Mr. Warlock about his rests). It looks like they are in the range of 10% higher than Polearm Master for adventuring days of 6 encounters, and then start dropping down after that. So the question is, is the benefit in the final column too good balance-wise, or is it about right?

Why are you comparing apples to oranges?

Instead try comparing Totem and Berserk Barbarians, with and without a feat that enables bonus attacks.

 

[CapnZapp]

a character with a combat-related feat should do more damage than a character without one.

I realize you're speaking in a certain context here, but it's certainly possible to conjure up a honest case where a feat doesn't add raw DPR but still is a valid choice.

And then there's all sorts of builds where a simple ASI is simply better than the "combat" feat you took...

 

[CapnZapp]

I was about to suggest that instead of Frenzy giving the Barb one level of exhaustion it should cost a hit die.

However, if anyone could reduce their level of exhaustion by one step on a short rest by expending a hit die for that purpose, then job done.

As is, the exhaustion cost is far, far too high.

Either that, or they need to change the description to something that sounds much serious and crippling.

I mean, how would you describe a condition that even the mighty level FIVE spell Greater Restoration can only lessen a single step at a time?

 

[CapnZapp]

I don't agree. One of the big issues with the frenzy attack is it's a bonus attack easily replicated by a feat.

This.

Is why frenzy isn't all that good (in games with feats, at least). And by "not that good" I mean it is a trap option best avoided.

It is MUCH better to optimize your bonus action attack for something that doesn't come with such an ridiculously severe penalty as Frenzy.

The proper comparison is to put the two Barb subclasses against each other, with a feat enabling "free" bonus attacks.

(Do note that you already need to use your bonus action to Rage)

A Berserker that gets truly free extra attacks* (like the Ranger ability Horde Breaker), and gets a single level of exhaustion after a full combat using it, then just maybe the exhaustion penalty could be defensible...!

*) once per round, naturally

 

[CapnZapp]

Since the primary benefit of both is to get a Bonus Attack, that'd be a bit pointless.

Which is why you need to make the comparison.

 

[CapnZapp]

Feats have nothing to do with anything. We're comparing berserker to totem warrior here. Spirit Walker, Aspect of the Beast, and Intimidating Presence are little more than decoration; Retaliation seems pretty well balanced with Totemic Attunement. So, assuming 4 rages per day and not frenzying more than once, that leaves us with:

• Once per day, you get a free attack as a bonus action each round for the duration of combat. You gain a level of exhaustion afterward.
• 4 times per day, you can become immune to charmed and frightened for the duration of combat.

versus

• 4 times per day, you can gain resistance to damage other than slashing, bludgeoning, and piercing for the duration of combat.

That's the comparison. Seems pretty balanced to me.

Not when you add feats. One is significantly hindered from taking full advantage; the other is not.

 

[Ashrym]

Everyone comparing polearm mastery to replicate the bonus action attack is missing a vital point in the comparison. The frenzy ability doesn't require a feat while polearm master styles do. That means those comparisons have been a totem barbarian with a feat versus a berserker barbarian without a feat. We shouldn't miss the opportunity cost.

Each of you needs to ask yourself what else you just gave up in that comparison that wasn't considered. ;-)

Start adding in equal numbers of feats if a person wants to compare.