• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 5E Is he evil?

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
A real-world bouncer who responded to a bar fight by pulling a knife would not only be fired, but arrested and charged with assault with a deadly weapon. Drawing a lethal weapon is the exact opposite of "doing his job." It's a bouncer's job to break up fights with a minimum of harm, not put dead bodies on the floor.

I don't necessarily disagree with this, but this is often a frontier sort of justice, so tavern keepers, bouncers, and the like very well may be armed (legally) with lethal weapons for when things get out of hand. Bouncers in the old west or medieval times (where they probably didn't exist) are quite different than what we consider today.

So the setting and context are different. And if the PCs had killed him during the bar fight, they might still have been in trouble with the law, but not a question of alignment. The issue here is that the fight was over, the bouncer surrendered, and the PC killed him anyway.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
I guess I just view it differently then you. Or I used the wrong terminology. To me, hunting down someone that killed your family is not a crime of passion, but fully premeditated. The criminal had time to think about it and go out of their way to enact their revenge. Killing someone seconds after they were trying to kill you, even if they dropped their weapon and were no longer a direct threat because you were still riding the emotions of the combat doesn't ring of evil necessarily.

Yes, it could be premeditated, although in some cases, like the victim's family watching the Lord allow his friend (the murderer) go free, and attacking in the moment is not. My point was really that a crime of passion (to me anyway) is not sparked by a combat.

I get what you're trying to get at, and while it's possible there could be something like that, there wasn't any indication that was the case here, based on the discussion between the player and the DM. It was just

"I kill him."
"Really? He's unarmed and not a threat?"
"Yes, I kill him"

Sure, we weren't there to see if there was any "crime of passion" but a "crime of passion murder" is still a murder."
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
It's really not. D&D alignment is based on real world morality in exactly the same way as hit points are based on real world biology, which is to say not at all except they use a few of the same words.

Every edition of D&D has used evil as evil and good as good. All of them. 5e is no different.

Much as hit points are a fictional depiction of biology created for gaming convenience, alignment is ... well, you get the point. Alignment is action-movie morality: it's okay to kill the bad guys because they're bad, now get on with the action. Aaron pointed out some good canonical examples above, and there are plenty of others.

It's not okay to murder a human in cold blood in D&D and never has been. People do it. It may not be enough to turn you evil. But it is an evil act. Go read any of the good alignments in any edition, and the sections on good in the ones that have them and see if you can find, "Murder is okay" in any of them.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
Alignment is action-movie morality: it's okay to kill the bad guys because they're bad, now get on with the action. Aaron pointed out some good canonical examples above, and there are plenty of others.

No, its not. It never has been, and never will be. Alignment has never ever been described in those terms (barring some random quote by Gygax that gets bandied about every now and then, which is nothing more than a statement on his own views on aligment).

Certainly since 3E at the very least, killing, harming and opressing others = Evil. Mercy, compassion and kindess = Good.

I have to agree with you both here.

Alignment isn't described in those terms. But the game has an understood morality that is presented as being based on a good vs evil.

But evil is defined quite differently than our world. The game presents things like goblins and orcs as inherently evil, and they exist purely for the PCs to kill. But it goes further than even that, lycanthropes, for example, which are evil creatures, but in many cases evil only when in their monstrous form. Yes there are good creatures in the MM, not everything there is just to kill. But the evil creatures are presented as eligible for PCs to kill without any moral questions at all.

Moving to the adventures, and even human or "good" humanoid races are presented in the same light. The Cult of the Dragon in HotDQ/RoT, the Elemental Cults of PotA, etc. Members of those organizations are presented in the same way.

So killing isn't always evil. And had the description of the scene in the OP been that they had tracked down the leader of the Cult of the Dragon into a bar, a fight ensued, and he surrendered, but they killed him anyway? Still probably leaning evil, but an entirely different scenario.

Regardless of whether Lord of the Rings was written in response to real-world wars, the orcs in the story form a very good parallel with the Nazis. Everybody who watches an Indiana Jones films knows the Nazis are bad, and it's OK to kill them.

Star Wars has the same morality, and the questions about the greater good and such still lean very heavily to allow only killing in self-defense, or in a war-like situation.

Killing Dooku who was surrendering? Evil.
Killing sand people in what might be considered a crime of passion when your mother dies? Evil.

The whole story arc of Anakin in the prequels is more or less a study on changing alignment from a D&D perspective.

But killing storm troopers, even those that aren't actively attacking you is OK if you're on a mission.

The reality is, morality, especially in regards to killing, tomb robbing, and theft, are drawn as black and white to keep moral quandaries from bogging down the game. DMs can take that and blur the lines, which I think makes things much more interesting. As I mentioned before, the inclusion of non-combatants (civilians) of "women and children" in Caves of Chaos is one of those. Most groups see them as just more stuff to kill.

But it can also be used by the players in character development, questioning their own morality and the morality of the world. This can be very interesting. But some (most?) groups just want to kill stuff for treasure and more power and abilities.

The game also has a history of attempting define an individuals morality within that framework with alignment. Alignment doesn't define the morality, it defines or describes how a character fits within that morality. Early editions went so far as to restrict what you could get away with within that alignment by penalizing you for changing alignment, to the point of permanently losing all special abilities to certain classes if you changed it, or even if it were changed by an external force, such as magic (although then you might have a chance of regaining your abilities through a quest).

The morality projected is interesting, because assassins had to be evil. No lawful neutral, which is where I would put somebody like James Bond.

But within this context (in AD&D), Paladins lose their abilities whenever they "knowingly and willingly commit an evil act." Yet there is never a (published) question as to whether slaying scores of goblins, including women and children, is evil.

In part, the question of morality is present enough that it could become a central theme in a campaign, such as a Paladin losing their abilities due to a spell, and attempting to redeem themselves and regain their abilities.

Having a meaningful discussion regarding the original post, or even a wider discussion on what's good or evil in D&D is much more difficult if we don't agree on the framework. If you're running a campaign in a post-apocalyptic world - Dark Sun, Mad Max, something of that nature - then the moral questions are quite different.

In the situation described, though, it's a pretty standard fare D&D. The PCs in the tavern, and a bar fight breaks out. No indication that there is a suspicion that the bouncer is a mass murderer, etc. No imminent risk to the PCs or other people at the moment the killing took place. I definitely consider that frontier (think old west) law prevails. If the bouncer had started attacking other people, and the PCs were defending them and killed the bouncer, then that's OK. In the midst of battle, sure. If it was an orc that joined the fray (and not a bouncer), that would also fit the D&D morality as not evil, although it would be pushing things a bit if they surrendered. But there's a pretty good chance that if it was an orc and the PCs didn't kill the surrendering orc, that somebody else would.

But this was not an orc, not attacking, not armed, and surrendering.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I
But evil is defined quite differently than our world. The game presents things like goblins and orcs as inherently evil, and they exist purely for the PCs to kill. But it goes further than even that, lycanthropes, for example, which are evil creatures, but in many cases evil only when in their monstrous form. Yes there are good creatures in the MM, not everything there is just to kill. But the evil creatures are presented as eligible for PCs to kill without any moral questions at all.

I don't agree with that. Even back in 1e most "evil" monsters weren't bound to that alignment. You could and did have neutral and good versions. The closest you got were the always evil monsters, but even then there were rare exceptions. Mindless killing based on appearance will result in the killing of good monsters of the types that appear to be the evil ones.

The good news is that the evil ones pretty much act and respond in an evil and violent way, justifying their killing. However, if one acts in an unusual manner, the groups I have played with have almost always (about 90% of them) held off from just hacking the creature down in order to identify what was going on.

The reality is, morality, especially in regards to killing, tomb robbing, and theft, are drawn as black and white to keep moral quandaries from bogging down the game. DMs can take that and blur the lines, which I think makes things much more interesting. As I mentioned before, the inclusion of non-combatants (civilians) of "women and children" in Caves of Chaos is one of those. Most groups see them as just more stuff to kill.

I haven't been in any group that didn't face moral questions about the women and children of orcs. Did many of them ultimately kill them anyway in order to prevent more evil from taking root in the world? Yes. Did many of them leave those women and children alive, not being willing to do something so heinous in order to keep evil down? Yes. The moral question was always brought up and discussed, though. This goes back to 1e and basic.

But within this context (in AD&D), Paladins lose their abilities whenever they "knowingly and willingly commit an evil act." Yet there is never a (published) question as to whether slaying scores of goblins, including women and children, is evil.

From 3e.[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

So good respects life and has concern for the dignity of sentient beings. No restrictions like respects good and neutral life and sentient beings.

Evil on the other hand kills others, has no compassion, and kills without qualms when convenient. Killing others has no alignment restrictions, either. Killing those orc women and children without qualms like you describe invokes the no compassion AND no qualms when convenient portions of evil.

I've seen many alignment threads here say it's okay to just murder prisoners who are evil when it's tough or impossible to get them back to a place where the authorities can hold or try them. More murders of convenience. Those are evil acts.[/FONT]
 


Mishihari Lord

First Post
Every edition of D&D has used evil as evil and good as good. All of them. 5e is no different.

It's not okay to murder a human in cold blood in D&D and never has been. People do it. It may not be enough to turn you evil. But it is an evil act. Go read any of the good alignments in any edition, and the sections on good in the ones that have them and see if you can find, "Murder is okay" in any of them.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree here. I'm plenty familiar with the various definitions on alignment and how they've been implemented in published material across all of the editions, and I still disagree with you.
 


It's not okay to murder a human in cold blood in D&D and never has been.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree here. I'm plenty familiar with the various definitions on alignment and how they've been implemented in published material across all of the editions, and I still disagree with you.

It was the actual illustration of Chaotic alignment before the good-evil-neutral axis was even added to the game (although the victim was a kobold; not a human).

BasicAlignment.jpg

Can you cite a definition of alignment from some edition of the game in which cold-blooded murder was "okay"?
 

UnknownDyson

Explorer
I think it's really scary that people are doing such mental gymnastics to try and justify second degree murder. Killing captives, prisoners of war, or otherwise defenseless non combatants has never been considered lawful or honorable behavior in any civilized society. I know we are talking about a fictional situation in a D&D roleplaying game but it isn't very far away from reality. I thought the responses to this thread would be almost universally condemning, should have known better. A question then, do you find police executions of unarmed non combatants to be justified? Did they have it coming to them anyway?
 

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top