D&D 5E Do you care about setting "canon"?

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Yeah, I understand what you're saying- I just don't agree with it. After all, AD&D isn't "1e," it's Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. And BECMI, again, is far more similar to 1e and 2e than either of those are to 3, 4, and 5e. (Arguably, BECMI, 1e, and 2e are closer to 5e which is closer to 3e ... and then 4e is a little further removed).

It wasn't titled 1e, but the instant 2e came out it became 1e. I understand that there are big differences between some of the editions, but that doesn't make BECMI one of them. It just means that TSR/WotC was inconsistent with what they decided constituted an edition and what was a new and separate game. It's their game, so they get to decide. You are free to consider BECMI one of the editions, but that won't make it so.

For that matter, by your own definition, then OD&D (0e) isn't D&D, because it wasn't an edition in the AD&D (1e) line. And if the argument you are making precludes the actual game of D&D that started it all as being "D&D," then there may be something wrong with the argument. :)

No. You are misconstruing my argument. I never said BECMI wasn't D&D. I said it wasn't one of the editions in the 1e-5e line, but rather a separate and concurrent game of D&D. As such, what applies to BECMI(elves as a class) does not apply to 1e-5e. They are separate games.
 

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The question of what sort of setting information will guide my choices is not primarily mine to make. I would agree that a good GM will work with their players to develop a canon that everyone is on board with, but it's technically the GM's privilege and responsibility to do so.

<snip>

I don't have a specific expectation of a right to tell the GM what sort of canon choices to make.
Different groups adopt different approaches to the distribution of authority in respect of setting, backstory etc.

Just to give one recent example from my own play: a month or so ago my group started a 4e Dark Sun game. The 4e Dark Sun campaign guide is set some indeterminate (but not all that long) time after the overthrow of the Sorcerer-King of Tyr, and it establishes Tyr as the default starting point for a campaign.

No one in my group (including me) has played Dark Sun before. I have the 4e books, and also have the original 2nd ed boxed set because another member of my group gave it to my a couple of years ago when he was cleaning out his bookshelves. (I don't know if he ever read it.)

The pre-game introduction to the setting was a few sentences by email circulated around the group: sword and planet; sand and sandals; arcane magic is defiling; no divine casting; and (in our game) bards and avengers are to be treated as psionic.

When a couple of the players wanted to play Eladrin, I also told them about the Lands Within the Wind - the Dark Sun version of the Feywild, which has been increasingly eroded due to the effects of defiling.

Then, when we actually had our first session, I asked each player to come up with a "kicker", that is (to quote from The Forge), an event or realisation that the character has experienced just before play begins, which thereby propels the character into the game. The player of the half-giant barbarian stated his kicker more-or-less as follows:

I was about to cut off my opponent's head of in the arena, to the adulation of the crowd, when the announcement came that the Sorcerer-King was dead, and they all looked away.​

So that settled the question of timelines: the campaign starts at the moment of the overthrow of the Sorcerer-King.

Which almost guarantees that our game is going to depart from some of the canon in the campaign book, because the series of events that follows the death of the Sorcerer-King will almost certainly be different in our game from what is set out in the book, in part because the PCs will probably be intimately involved in them.

I see this as a concrete illustration of [MENTION=6785785]hawkeyefan[/MENTION]'s point, that actual play in a setting precludes strict adherence to canon. I don't see how it could be otherwise, unless the GM is exercising an extreme degree of control over the content of the shared fiction.

I view 'canon' as a kind of Platonic Ideal thing. There is, somewhere in the ether, a 'true' Eberron, that no one has ever written about in its entirety.
I understand the pull of Platonism in relation to mathematical truth, or even empirical truth. But not in the context of fictional creations, particularly fictional creations that are intended primarily as the source of elements for others to deploy in their own authorial endeavours.
 

I understand the pull of Platonism in relation to mathematical truth, or even empirical truth. But not in the context of fictional creations, particularly fictional creations that are intended primarily as the source of elements for others to deploy in their own authorial endeavours.

See the short story, "Leaf by Niggle," where J. R. R. Tolkien examines the ideas from his essay "On Fairy Stories" in the form of parable...
 


That probably depends on the setting, doesn't it? Settings like FR, and even GH, don't really seem to limit the range of characters all that much (relative to the sorts of characters that D&D permits at all).

Dark Sun and Dragonlance are different in this respect, though, because (unlike GH and FR) they deliberately push against, or at least vary, some default D&D conceits.

Oh sure. The range is determined by the setting. A setting like Faerun or Golarion are so broad that nearly anything works for a character concept. A setting like Dragonlance and Dark Sun is exclusionary; it purposefully limits your options to keep the setting on theme.
 

You appear to be making two separate arguments. In short-

1. "They're different games, because elf is a class," argument. Okay, that's just a bad argument for obvious reasons because it depends on the differentiation between sets. Here, let me show you- nothing after 2e is a real edition because it doesn't have negative armor class (pouring out a cold one for -10 a.c.). The easiest way to look at it is this- I can run BECMI, 1e, and 2e modules in 5e on the fly- this shows the rule sets are extremely similar. I can't do that with 3e and 4e. By this metric, 4e and 3e are the outliers and not editions.

No. Once again you are misconstruing things. They are different games because TSR created them as different games. The editions 1-5 are different editions because TSR and WotC created them to be different editions. They get to decide those things, not you or I. The elves example was to show that people are trying to compare two different games, which doesn't work. It was not an argument as to why they are different games.

2. The formalistic argument. In short, something is an edition of D&D if it is an officially numbered edition. But that is both so trite as to be useless, and not accurate as well. Technically (and formally) 1e was never numbered, and people weren't calling it "1e" right when 2e was released. Moreover, 1e and 2e are Advanced D&D, while 3+ are just D&D- just like BECMI.

What constitutes a different game of D&D and different edition of D&D is what TSR/WotC made them to be. Should some of the editions just have been different games? Probably. They weren't though, so we have them as editions.
Like I said, it's not that I don't understand your argument; I just think it's very wrong. And I will continue to insist that any argument that erases both BECMI and OD&D from D&D editions needs to go back to the drawing board.
Considering that you have badly misconstrued it twice in a row now, I'm not sure you do understand it.
 


I'm talking about how designers affect gaming groups as a way to talk about what I think designers should do for the betterment of many gaming groups.


Yeah, that's a big chunk of it.


It does mean if I was a new player joining your game, I'd expect that house to be there, and the fact that your game doesn't have that house would be important to note.

Just an example, if I was hoping to play a gnome, it would be important to know if House Sivis was still around or not. So if you invite me to play and just say "We're playing an Eberron game" and I make a dragonmarked House Sivis gnome, and then I show up and House Sivis is fallen, that changes the story I was going to tell with that character.


I'd agree that individual campaigns shouldn't feel any special commitment to canon - they just need to be explicit about what's going on with their game (just as they would if they were changing the way saving throws worked).

I think the designers, however, should feel that commitment, and that it causes some issues when they don't.

Gotcha. I honestly think our views aren't all that different. I agree it's a bigger deal for designers/authors than for players, but I still don't think it's necessary.

In terms of playing/DMing the game, whatever is the best fit for the gaming group is what makes the most sense. For game designers, whatever will be the most compelling game setting/option should be the main goal. And for authors, the characters and story are what's most important.
 

Um, [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION], it seems like you are forgetting that what brought up this whole discussion of what does or doesn't count as which game of Dungeons & Dragons was the following:

  1. A claim was made that "no version of D&D" included elves all having spells
  2. A version of D&D in which all elves did have spells was mentioned.
  3. You started claiming that version of the game doesn't count because it's a different game line, not an edition in the 1st to 5th string.

Which isn't relevant to the comments actually made because Dungeons & Dragons is a version of Dungeons & Dragons.

So to the rest of us that saw the exchange that you joined and how you joined it, it appeared you were saying that BECMI wasn't D&D.
 

See the short story, "Leaf by Niggle," where J. R. R. Tolkien examines the ideas from his essay "On Fairy Stories" in the form of parable...
Even if one accepts JRRT's ideas set out in "On Fairy Stories" about the nature of literary creation - and they rest on a certain religious conceptions of the nature of creation in general - I don't think those ideas defend a Platonism about fictional worlds of the sort that [MENTION=4936]Shayuri[/MENTION] suggested. Do they?
 

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