D&D 5E Mearl's Book Design Philosophy

[hawkeyefan]

No, you are correct it is a mix, but with an emphasis on nostalgia as the selling point to keep previous players interested. However, since I have been playing D&D for a long time, I prefer something completely new.

Gotcha. Can't blame you for that. I'd be happy to see something new, as well. It'll be pretty hard to come up with something that's fresh enough not to draw comparisons to some kind of past work, though. But I'll be psyched if someone does it.

 

[SkidAce]

For new people, it should be all new.

For new people it is all new, they never saw it before.

 

[PMárk]

And let me repeat the part of your post I was replying to, because that apparently got lost somehow, "Well, what about the new gamers, who didn't [see it before]?"

I assume my answer [which was just to that part of your post] of, "They're selling the classic books..." makes sense now?

My posts second part answers to your answer, I think.

 

[Tony Vargas]

So you think the design philosophy is one that is purely nostalgic? Not split between appealing to long time or lapsed players and obtaining new players?

Yeah. There is an intent to appeal to new players, but it's in the form of 'deliver what called to us when we were new players,' which is still nostalgic.

IMX, at the FLGS, the Encounters program pulled in (and stunningly, even retained), a lot of entirely-new-to-the-hobby players, while AL pulls in and retains a lot of returning players.
IMHO, 5e is the long-awaited legitimate come-back of the 80s D&D fad, which is huge. It's an accomplishment that's hard to overstate, kinda the holy grail of D&D-IP-holders ever since the fad ended.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Yeah. There is an intent to appeal to new players, but it's in the form of 'deliver what called to us when we were new players,' which is still nostalgic.

IMX, at the FLGS, the Encounters program pulled in (and stunningly, even retained), a lot of entirely-new-to-the-hobby players, while AL pulls in and retains a lot of returning players.
IMHO, 5e is the long-awaited legitimate come-back of the 80s D&D fad, which is huge.

That's an interesting way to look at it. I suppose we could breakdown what the designers had in mind compared to how new players view the game. I would agree there is an element of nostalgia that is baked in. I don't know if it's the only thing, though. Especially given the success with new players. I think other factors were considered in the design phase to try and obtain new players....ease of play being the most prominent, I'd say.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I would agree there is an element of nostalgia that is baked in. I don't know if it's the only thing, though. Especially given the success with new players.

Nostalgia's success at bringing in experienced DMs & Players is intimately linked to what success 5e has had with new players, since it allows a new player to experience the game 'done right' the first time he sits down at some AL or other public event, or gets invited to the table by new/returning players he's otherwise acquainted with. Having someone who knows the game (and, indeed, the hobby) well, makes up for a lot of confusing-to-new-player sacred cows.

....ease of play being the most prominent, I'd say.

I can't agree, since 5e is not that easy to play compared to many other games on the market - or, for that matter, the last edition of D&D, itself. Now, to a returning player, 5e is a breeze to get back into the swing of, and that's a definite plus that goes beyond the mere feel aspect of nostalgia. (Contrast with the 2010 Red Box, for instance, that was dead-easy for a new player, and came in a nostalgic-felling package, but not so comfortingly familiar when a returning player actually played it.)

 

[hawkeyefan]

Nostalgia's success at bringing in experienced DMs & Players is intimately linked to what success 5e has had with new players, since it allows a new player to experience the game 'done right' the first time he sits down at some AL or other public event, or gets invited to the table by new/returning players he's otherwise acquainted with. Having someone who knows the game (and, indeed, the hobby) well, makes up for a lot of confusing-to-new-player sacred cows.

I think you're saying nostalgia but maybe you mean experience? Experienced DMs and players who help new players need not be motivated by nostalgia. Some may...but I'd think the nostalgia factor would be more of a draw for lapsed players and DMs. I'm sure there's a cross section of players returning to the game due to nostalgia and then helping new players, so you'd be right in those cases. I just don't know if I'd agree that the nostalgia is as broad a factor as you are supposing.

I can't agree, since 5e is not that easy to play compared to many other games on the market - or, for that matter, the last edition of D&D, itself. Now, to a returning player, 5e is a breeze to get back into the swing of, and that's a definite plus that goes beyond the mere feel aspect of nostalgia. (Contrast with the 2010 Red Box, for instance, that was dead-easy for a new player, and came in a nostalgic-felling package, but not so comfortingly familiar when a returning player actually played it.)

The starter box makes things pretty easy. It even offers up some pregenerated characters. I've seen a group of kids play that right out of the box with an experienced DM. They caught on pretty easy to the major game elements like AC and +to hit and the like. The hardest thing for them was deciding in who would play which character, and the math.

This is anecdotal, sure. But along with plenty of other past experience, the game isn't really that hard to play. I think the more straightforward design was indeed an attempt to not scare any potential new players off. I'm surprised anyone would disagree with that.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I think you're saying nostalgia but maybe you mean experience?

The game presents nostalgic elements that appeal to experienced players (and, especially usefully, to experienced DMs). So, yes, the one is closely related to the other.

Experienced DMs and players who help new players need not be motivated by nostalgia. Some may...but I'd think the nostalgia factor would be more of a draw for lapsed players and DMs.

Lapsed players & DMs may well have had a lot of experience back in the day. That experience would stand them in fair stead with 5e.

I think the more straightforward design was indeed an attempt to not scare any potential new players off. I'm surprised anyone would disagree with that.

The design is familiar to long-time and returning players, but it's neither straightforward nor simple. It's complex, even 'needlessly' (hah!) complicated - if it weren't, it would be neither nostalgic nor familiar (and, ironically, thus not straightforward/simple seeming) to those players. A genuinely simple/intuitive/straightforward design would probably be harder for us long-time fans to grasp, even if it might theoretically have been easier on new players.

The up side is that the presence of long-time & returning players gives new players help in tackling the perennial complexity of D&D.

 

[JeffB]

4e was vastly easier for my kids group to get than pfbb, osr/tsr.d&d and 5e presents the same issue even after 5 years of play.

every class works differently with the rules.
vancian casting and spell levels that dont match with character levels

are two big ones. if you have never played d&d, those are fubar. 4e aedu and power levels = character levels make sense.

i wanted to bring my wife into our halloween game with the kids ( now seniors in HS). She knows absolutely nothing about rpgs, computer games, other than what.she has overheard when we play. When I triex to.explain some basics , she tuned out... "sounds like math classes in nursing school...no thanks"...d&d in any form is complex. 4e makes more sense than most versions to people who have no experience whatsoever.

after I told her how CoC works, she agreed to play. Much better system to introduce someone. people understand simple percentages and the idea of "skills". Unfortunatey she wasnt able to sit in, but Im still trying

I will go with Dungeon World next time if I can convince her to try a fantasy game again.

 

[Tony Vargas]

after I told her how CoC works, she agreed to play. Much better system to introduce someone. people understand simple percentages and the idea of "skills".

I never thought of Chaosium's core system as 'simple,' but then my introduction to it was RuneQuest. I guess BRP might actually deserve the 'B.' (But, I mean, the sheer number of skills...)