D&D 5E Tome of Beasts+ 3pp Books

[Zardnaar]

Hi I am looking at ordering Dungeonology and volos guide off Amazon.

However its also for one of my players who will buy anything official. He is also going to buy Tome of Beasts based on my recommendation.

We are also looking at getting Fifth Edition Foes and Book of Lost Spells. Who here has any of those books as we might get multiple copies as well.

 

[Giant2005]

I have 5th Edition Foes and the Book of Lost Spells and frankly, the reason I don't have any more third party books is because they put me off the concept entirely. The spellbook in particular was outrageously unbalanced to the point where it was unusable without some serious DM intervention. If you are going to have to go through that kind of effort, you may as well just make your own stuff (which is what I did via the DMsG).
They also used improper terminology and formatting for everything which was kind of annoying, but in their defense that is because those books were released prior to the OGL, so they had to change things enough to not get sued. I imagine newer 3rd party stuff won't have that issue.

Here are a couple of examples regarding super OP spells that just can't be used in a game:

Inflict Lycanthropy
6th-level transmutation
Warlock, Wizard
Components: V, S, M (fur from a lycanthrope)
Casting Time: 1 action
Duration: Permanent
Range: Touch
Area of Effect: 1 humanoid creature
Saving Throw: Con / negates effect
You attempt to change one humanoid into a lycanthrope. If the creature
fails a Constitution saving throw, it becomes cursed with lycanthropy.
The type of lycanthropy you can inflict depends on the level of the spell
slot used to cast the spell.
6th level: wererat, werewolf
7th level: wereboar, weretiger
8th level or higher: werebear
The effect of lycanthropy on player characters is discussed fully in the
rulebooks. The lycanthropy can be ended by magic that lifts curses.

Chilling Gaze
6th-level transmutation
Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard
Components: V, S, M (a glass cube)
Casting Time: 1 action
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
Range: Self
Area of Effect: Self
Saving Throw: Con / negates effect
Your eyes become cold and frosty. For the duration of this spell,
whenever a creature starts its turn within 30 feet of you, you can force
it to make a Constitution saving throw. The creature must be able to see
your eyes, and you must be able to see it. If the saving throw fails, the
creature takes 2d10 cold damage and becomes paralyzed by supernatural
chills. The paralysis lasts 2d4 days; this decreases to 1 day if the victim
is warmed in a dwelling, bundled in furs, etc. The paralysis can also be
ended by magic capable of removing paralysis.
Creatures that are resistant to or immune to cold damage are not
paralyzed by this spell.

 

[Fanaelialae]

While the Book of Lost Spells does have some cool ideas, I have to agree with Giant2005 that it isn't well balanced.

I use and enjoy both 5th Edition Foes and Tome of Beasts though. While the creatures within tend to be arguably on the high side for their CR (compared to the MM), its not anything that an experienced group of players shouldn't be able to handle. I'd be very cautious when allowing players access to creatures from those books though (through wild shape, polymorph, summoning spells, etc) and limit such to a case-by-case basis.

 

[delericho]

Tome of Beasts is fantastic. Fifth Edition Foes is also good, but less so - if you have to choose, get ToB, but I do recommend both.

Those are the only two 5e third party books I own.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Hi I am looking at ordering Dungeonology and volos guide off Amazon.

However its also for one of my players who will buy anything official. He is also going to buy Tome of Beasts based on my recommendation.

We are also looking at getting Fifth Edition Foes and Book of Lost Spells. Who here has any of those books as we might get multiple copies as well.

I really enjoyed Fifth Edition Foes and the Book of Lost Spells.

The Book of Lost Spells has lots of really interesting and inspiring spells. I loved the warlock voodoo magic in particular. The balance on the Book of Lost Spells is about as good as the PHB. There are some spells in there (like Iron Core) which are waaaaay too strong--but the exact same can be said about PHB spells like Polymorph and Simulacrum and EE spells like Absorb Elements.

The main thing that makes me as a DM love the Book of Lost Spells is that it is interesting. I gave out copies to my players and told them to use it as inspiration for their own spell research. That is, they cannot just select spells in it for free on level-up, but they can use my spell research rules to make their own spells that are approximately as interesting as the BoLS spells. (I have a system that makes more powerful spells harder to research and vice versa. E.g. Fireball would have a much higher research DC than Witch Bolt, and some of the better BoLS spells would also have a high DC.)

I liked the fact that Fifth Edition Foes included some important stats that are missing from MM monsters, such as ecology, organization, and number appearing. But for one reason or another I haven't wound up using that many FEF monsters at the table.

 

[Giant2005]

There are some spells in there (like Iron Core) which are waaaaay too strong--but the exact same can be said about PHB spells like Polymorph and Simulacrum and EE spells like Absorb Elements.

That is true, but I really think the difference in scale should be accounted for.
For example, just comparing Polymorph and Chiling Gaze highlights the differences in scale fairly well.
Polymorph can severely debilitate a single target unless it passes a single saving through.
Chilling Gaze debilitates targets even more (because unlike Polymorph, you can actually kill the targets without cancelling the effect), effects everything that is within, or will enter a 30' radius of you for 1 minute, and succeeding in the saving throw will only protect them for a single round (not forever as is the case with Polymorph).
At level 6, Chilling Gaze is dozens of times more powerful than the level 9 True Polymorph when used in this way. Although in True Polymorph's defense, it has some utility uses as well.
They are both powerful, and some might say overpowered; but Chilling Gaze is committing the far greater crime in that respect.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

That is true, but I really think the difference in scale should be accounted for.
For example, just comparing Polymorph and Chiling Gaze highlights the differences in scale fairly well.
Polymorph can severely debilitate a single target unless it passes a single saving through.
Chilling Gaze debilitates targets even more (because unlike Polymorph, you can actually kill the targets without cancelling the effect), effects everything that is within, or will enter a 30' radius of you for 1 minute, and succeeding in the saving throw will only protect them for a single round (not forever as is the case with Polymorph).
At level 6, Chilling Gaze is dozens of times more powerful than the level 9 True Polymorph when used in this way. Although in True Polymorph's defense, it has some utility uses as well.
They are both powerful, and some might say overpowered; but Chilling Gaze is committing the far greater crime in that respect.

Just like any gaze attack, creatures can close their eyes to be immune, and it only works at the start of their turn so they can kite you. Granted, the duration certainly is not within the 5E idiom (2d4 days of paralysis?), but the 5E PHB itself has other spells that also don't fit the general 5E paradigm: consider unusual the 5th level Awaken spell in both enhancing and charming a beast for a whole month with no concentration requirement. Look at how broken the PHB's Animal Shapes is for dive-bombing an enemy with dozens of rhinoceroses at once (e.g. turn two dozen friendly mice into eagles, have them all fly to the target and then turn into rhinos); look at how Wall of Force doesn't even grant a save; look at how Aura of Vitality outclasses any other healing spell of comparable level; look at how True Polymorph can create permanent treasure and permanent Clay Golems and permanent Nycaloths that you can bind with Planar Binding; look at how Animate Dead breaks concentration economy and action economy into little tiny pieces.

I don't buy the claim that Chilling Gaze is more of an outlier than any spell in the PHB. (Hello, Simulacrum + Wish?!?)

But let's say for the sake of argument that Chilling Gaze is more powerful than anything in the PHB. So don't let your players research Chilling Gaze, or assign it a high DC to make them work for it! The fact that you may never hand out Chilling Gaze in treasure, or have any of your players research it, does not in any way detract from the awesomeness that is Spiteful Images! (It's a countermeasure against Mirror Image that makes the mirror images attack their own caster. Try and tell me that doesn't give you awesome ideas for all kinds of illusion-twisting spells!) And the very next spell in the list is Spyworm, a 3rd level druid spell that implants a parasite that lets you hear (for 8 hours) what the creature hears.

Every time I peruse the Book of Lost Spells I come away with awesome DMing ideas. To me that makes the product the best 5E product I have yet purchased.

Edit: BTW, on the subject of Polymorph, tell me another 4th level spell that can give another PC 230 extra HP (CR 13 Spinosaurus Rex, from Tome of Beasts) and 80ish DPR whenever you cast it. That spell is broken. Broken in a fun way, it's true, and as a DM I wouldn't ban it or change it--but if Chilling Gaze were in the PHB and Polymorph were in the BoLS, you might be criticizing Polymorph as the worse offender, and rightfully so.

 

[Morrus]

Tome of Beasts is really good.

 

[Fanaelialae]

BTW, on the subject of Polymorph, tell me another 4th level spell that can give another PC 230 extra HP (CR 13 Spinosaurus Rex, from Tome of Beasts) and 80ish DPR whenever you cast it. That spell is broken. Broken in a fun way, it's true, and as a DM I wouldn't ban it or change it--but if Chilling Gaze were in the PHB and Polymorph were in the BoLS, you might be criticizing Polymorph as the worse offender, and rightfully so.

Which is why I wouldn't allow players to use ToB or 5EF. In that case their best option for polymorph will typically be the T-Rex, granting 136 hp (albeit with a wretched 13 AC), and (assuming 100% hit rate) 33 DPR if you only have one enemy in range or 53 DPR split between two (although the bite does restrain). That's a pretty big difference compared to the Spinosaurus Rex.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Which is why I wouldn't allow players to use ToB or 5EF. In that case their best option for polymorph will typically be the T-Rex, granting 136 hp (albeit with a wretched 13 AC), and (assuming 100% hit rate) 33 DPR if you only have one enemy in range or 53 DPR split between two (although the bite does restrain). That's a pretty big difference compared to the Spinosaurus Rex.

This seems relevant to a thread about Tome of Beasts:

If the DM buys a new book of monsters or invents a legendary beast for one adventure and the campaign breaks due to Polymorph, I don't think it is the new monster book/new adventure that is at fault. Polymorph could have been written in a way that is fairly balanced--for instance, by making damage carry over to your normal shape, which is how it worked in AD&D--but it was instead written in a way that is ripe for exploitation.