• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 5E Characters are not their statistics and abilities

The character doesn't choose their stats, but the player does, esp if it's a point system. The player also chose not to invest *any* resources in defense for their character. It would have been trivial to raise the defenses of the character from non-existent to mediocre - still need to hang in the back line, but not critically weak.
If you want to have some agreement about how powerful everyone should make their characters, then that sounds like something you should discuss before the game starts. It's not a matter of role-playing, at that point, so there is no one correct answer. Complicating the situation, Pathfinder is especially sensitive to system mastery by the players - the power of your character is proportional to the number of books you've read multiplied by the amount of time you spend on character creation, so power imbalances can get pretty significant unless you really work to address that.

There are tons of in-game reasons the fighter would have picked a scimitar over a long sword. Perhaps longswords weren't available in the area of the world where she grew up. It is a player stylistic decision that slightly weakens the character, but the impact is minor.
It's not about the degree of impact; it's about the reason for making that choice. Any risk, whatsoever, is unacceptable if there's no good reason to take it. Remember, the lives of everyone in the party depend on how well you perform in combat, and if they die because you took an unnecessary risk then it's your fault and you will have to live with that forever in whatever sort of afterlife you end up in. Probably a bad one.

If the fighter has never seen a long-sword before, then that's a justified reason right up until the time she sees one, at which point she already knows how to use it and can immediately intuit that a bigger blade is more effective. It's not rocket science. If your character is exceptionally dumb, then you might get away with it, if you have a lot else going for you - if you're playing a literal gorilla, for example, then people might be willing to overlook your inability to figure that one out.

If it's just a stylistic decision to accept an increased chance of everyone dying so that you can use a sword that looks cool, then that's a bad reason and any serious professional will know that you're not to be trusted. Seriously, it's not cool to risk even a .01% chance of everyone dying just for your aesthetic.

There are plenty of good reasons why someone might choose a scimitar over a long-sword, but these are not some of them. These are bad reasons.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
If you want to have some agreement about how powerful everyone should make their characters, then that sounds like something you should discuss before the game starts. It's not a matter of role-playing, at that point, so there is no one correct answer. Complicating the situation, Pathfinder is especially sensitive to system mastery by the players - the power of your character is proportional to the number of books you've read multiplied by the amount of time you spend on character creation, so power imbalances can get pretty significant unless you really work to address that.

It's not about the degree of impact; it's about the reason for making that choice. Any risk, whatsoever, is unacceptable if there's no good reason to take it. Remember, the lives of everyone in the party depend on how well you perform in combat, and if they die because you took an unnecessary risk then it's your fault and you will have to live with that forever in whatever sort of afterlife you end up in. Probably a bad one.

If the fighter has never seen a long-sword before, then that's a justified reason right up until the time she sees one, at which point she already knows how to use it and can immediately intuit that a bigger blade is more effective. It's not rocket science. If your character is exceptionally dumb, then you might get away with it, if you have a lot else going for you - if you're playing a literal gorilla, for example, then people might be willing to overlook your inability to figure that one out.

If it's just a stylistic decision to accept an increased chance of everyone dying so that you can use a sword that looks cool, then that's a bad reason and any serious professional will know that you're not to be trusted. Seriously, it's not cool to risk even a .01% chance of everyone dying just for your aesthetic.

There are plenty of good reasons why someone might choose a scimitar over a long-sword, but these are not some of them. These are bad reasons.

Just so I understand, are you saying that the scimitar choosing player is worse than the bard creator? Because I'm not sure what your point here is. My point was that sub-optimality is not a yes/no thing, that there are degrees of it, and some of them matter much more than others.
 


ccs

41st lv DM
If you want to have some agreement about how powerful everyone should make their characters, then that sounds like something you should discuss before the game starts. It's not a matter of role-playing, at that point, so there is no one correct answer. Complicating the situation, Pathfinder is especially sensitive to system mastery by the players - the power of your character is proportional to the number of books you've read multiplied by the amount of time you spend on character creation, so power imbalances can get pretty significant unless you really work to address that.

It's not about the degree of impact; it's about the reason for making that choice. Any risk, whatsoever, is unacceptable if there's no good reason to take it. Remember, the lives of everyone in the party depend on how well you perform in combat, and if they die because you took an unnecessary risk then it's your fault and you will have to live with that forever in whatever sort of afterlife you end up in. Probably a bad one.

If the fighter has never seen a long-sword before, then that's a justified reason right up until the time she sees one, at which point she already knows how to use it and can immediately intuit that a bigger blade is more effective. It's not rocket science. If your character is exceptionally dumb, then you might get away with it, if you have a lot else going for you - if you're playing a literal gorilla, for example, then people might be willing to overlook your inability to figure that one out.

If it's just a stylistic decision to accept an increased chance of everyone dying so that you can use a sword that looks cool, then that's a bad reason and any serious professional will know that you're not to be trusted. Seriously, it's not cool to risk even a .01% chance of everyone dying just for your aesthetic.

There are plenty of good reasons why someone might choose a scimitar over a long-sword, but these are not some of them. These are bad reasons.

I have a question.
How does my character know that a longsword does d8 damage vs that scimitar d6?
"In-world" my character sees a wide variety of similar weapons being used just as effectively to kill foes. Or nearly as effective as makes no discernable difference.
I mean how do you "see" that longsword doing an average of 1.something pts of higher average damage over time?
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
One could make a strong argument that it would be far easier for a character to know that wearing armor, using defensive magical items and mastering a few defensive spells are all great way to improve survivability that it would be to know which weapon is optimal.
 

Just so I understand, are you saying that the scimitar choosing player is worse than the bard creator? Because I'm not sure what your point here is. My point was that sub-optimality is not a yes/no thing, that there are degrees of it, and some of them matter much more than others.
I am saying that the scimitar-using fighter is in the wrong from an RP standpoint, which is a much worse offense than the bard-player who is only in the wrong from a meta-game standpoint. The bard-player might not actually be doing anything wrong, if you don't have an out-of-game agreement to make characters of a certain power level. The fighter is only excusable if you're playing a game where the characters don't care whether they live or die.

One could make a strong argument that it would be far easier for a character to know that wearing armor, using defensive magical items and mastering a few defensive spells are all great way to improve survivability that it would be to know which weapon is optimal.
I'd need to know the specifics in order to say anything for sure. The original statement was that the bard wore minimal armor, and since light armor is all that bards can wear, that's not a giant red flag or anything. When it comes to magical items and defensive spells, the situation gets a lot more difficult to analyze.
 

How does my character know that a longsword does d8 damage vs that scimitar d6?
"In-world" my character sees a wide variety of similar weapons being used just as effectively to kill foes. Or nearly as effective as makes no discernable difference.
I mean how do you "see" that longsword doing an average of 1.something pts of higher average damage over time?
A long-sword does as much more damage over a scimitar as a scimitar does over a dagger. That's not "nearly as effective" or anything like it. The wounds are significantly more grievous, or else the difference wouldn't be worth expressing in the game mechanics.
 

Luchador

First Post
Anybody been watching HBO's West World?

Really great part when the one hostess android looks at her stats, has them explained to her than then demands some revisions.
 

1. You are imbuing the PCs in the game with the same in-game mastery that you have. The characters (assumedly) do not know this is a "game." They are not hyperrealistic math machines. They will suffer from the same irrational biases, small sample sizes, and preferences within the game that we do. The fighter may want to use a particular weapon because his tribe/family always used that weapon, or because he believes it looks cool, or because it is favored by the gods, or whatever.
The characters can only observe the in-game reality which corresponds to the math, rather than the math itself, but it doesn't take a master of physics to understand that a bigger weapon hurts more. It might seem simplistic, and it could even be mis-leading in some cases, but in this case it's exactly as obvious as it appears.

In real life, you might actually fight better with your particular weapon. I'm fairly confident that a real-world test would indicate that people perform better with the tool they're used to, rather than one with a slightly superior design. Real life is complicated. Likewise, I know for a fact that a game-world test would indicate that people perform better with the better tool, and comfort isn't a factor at all. The game world is a less complicated place, and for characters to treat is as though it was as complicated as our world is disingenuous.

2. You are denigrating roleplaying over your preferred method of playing. Again, there is nothing wrong with viewing this as a game system, and you believe that every player must necessarily play it "to the best." But that's, just, like, your opinion, man. If that is way you and your table play, then more power (and math) to you. As you are no doubt aware, other tables play differently. Attempting to assert a universal, "All tables must play this way because the in-game characters would also optimize" necessarily fails as a matter of logic, because ... um ... real tables in the real world aren't optimizing. See what I did there? ;)
If that's where you think I'm going with this, then you don't understand my point at all. I'm all about role-playing. If I'm guilty of one-true-way-ism, then the true way which I advocate is role-playing above all else and the absolute admonition of any form of meta-gaming. (Which is more extreme than my actual position; I'll admit that there are times when meta-gaming is the lesser of two evils.)

It's just that people have a lot of mis-conceptions about role-playing. Some people seem to think it means you should play the character as though their world operated like our own world -- which is actually a form of meta-gaming. The character doesn't know anything about how things work in our world. The character only knows what they can observe about their world, of which we only know that the rules of the game are an adequate reflection under certain circumstances.

Going back to the previous example, the characters within the game world absolutely do not know that scimitars are better than long-swords when you're attacking from horseback. It may be true in our world, but it's not true in the game world. A test that we perform in our world, which might verify scimitar superiority under certain conditions, would have a different outcome in the game world. In order for it to have the same outcome, you would have to add rules covering that condition to the game in order to make it so -- which is also a solution, of course, because then it brings those factors into the realm of what the character can observe!

Otherwise, though, you'd be like the poor wizard who proclaims the impossibility of a twenty-foot tall humanoid, claiming that there's no way it could possibly support its own weight. You're making an argument based on information that you don't have, which isn't even true.

(I am over-stating the assumption that you're all playing competent professionals, which is far from as universal I seem to imply, but that's only to get to the larger point about role-playing based on observable realities rather than meta-gaming.)
 


Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top