D&D 5E Do you care about setting "canon"?

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Elderbrain

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The Gray Render went from being a Neutral (and possibly tameable) monster to being a generic "Let's make it Chaotic Evil because it looks scary" monster in 4e, for absolutely no reason other than the premise that if it's in the MM, it MUST be an opponent.
 

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Elderbrain

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Where have I called for anything to be changed?

Where have I said this?

Anyway, I'm not sure what you mean by "story" - but clearly the minutiae of canon are not a big part of what makes D&D D&D, because that gets changed at the drop of a hat! Eg in the mid-to-late 80s (DSG), the goal of mindflayers was to extinguish the sun. That was subsequently dropped without qualms. Orcs were LE for 20-odd years of publication, then changed to CE. (And their gods' alignments were changed with them.) Etc.

If canon and details are completely irrelevant, then answer me this: WHY - up until Pathfinder - have dozens of D&D clones been released and bit the dust, if all that makes D&D D&D is the Character Classes and some generic Orcs, Goblins, etc? WHY did those other RPGs fail when, by that reasoning, they were just as good...? Clearly, some vital ingredients were missing, and I submit to you that I know what they are. (Pathfinder succeeded because, 1. Many people were using the 3.5 rules and didn't want to give them up, 2. Pathfinder introduced interesting material of its own, and 3. Pathfinder was MORE like regular D&D than 4th edition D&D was.)
 

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Elderbrain

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I will let this go on past me for reasons of board rules, except to say that - at least as I understand it - the Planescape faction doesn't deny the existence of Powers, but simply denies that they are worthy of worship.

Correct. The Athar are not Atheists in the sense of denying the existence of Zeus, Thor, Mystra, Pelor, etc... but they point out that these beings are not infailable and can and do die (anybody who wants to see a dead "god" can visit one of their bodies on the Astral Plane.) A true god, the Athar reason, could not die and wouldn't need worship to survive, as the Powers do.
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
Lost control, but still fought wars there. Gondor wanted it back. The point is that a character from Harondor could easily hate Gondor and want to fight against it.

That's moving pretty far from "rebels against Gondor" and more towards just working for Sauron.
 


pemerton

Legend
Redemption is NOT a theme of the setting. It is only the theme of the War of the Lance. Prior to the war, no redemption was happening, yet the setting existed.

<snip>

These things are not what YOU think of when you play in those settings, but that doesn't mean that they are not a part of the settings. They just don't strike your fancy is all.

<snip>

setting transcend the books that spawn them.
To me, Dragonlance isn't about the geography or the history of the setting. That's part of it, of course, but, that's not what the setting is about. The setting is about redemption. How the setting is presented is all about redemption.

<snip>

Dragonlance isn't really defined by Ansalon which, at the end of the day, is a fairly stock standard D&D setting (other than no orcs). What defines Dragonlance is the themes - epic fantasy, clash of cultures, massive conflict between good and evil and the final redemption of the setting.
Two things.

First, I agree with Hussar. When I think of a setting, I don't think solely, or even primarily, of an imaginary geography and history. I think of tropes, themes, broad-brush backstory, etc.

This is why I've been able to play Oriental Adventures - the same setting - using two different sets of maps (home-drawn one, inspired by the description in the back of the original OA book; and the ones published by TSR).

This is why my Greyhawk games don't always involve the exact same backstory. Eg in my current GH game, Slerotin is the name of a Suel figure of some importance whose mummy was buried in a pyramid in the Bright Desert, and then at some time reinterred in the catacombs of Hardby. I can't remember if Slerotin eve figure in my other GH campaigns, but if so certainly not in this manner.

Second, the fact that a given setting, grounded in a given set of canonical texts, can nevertheless produce these quite different responses and interpretations is, in itself, evidence that [MENTION=2067]I'm A Banana[/MENTION]'s hope of ensuring conformity by reducing or elminating additions/changes to those texts, is unlikely to be realised.

Settings created for RPGing are B-fiction at best and are unworthy of consuming upon their own merits. The only thing canonical about such settings is what is established in the fiction at the table.
What I think RPG settings can usefully do is (i) handle some of the grunt work (of drawing maps, coming up with names, etc), and (ii) provide a ready supply of what I'll call "trope implementations". So if you want to play some sort of sand-and-sandals/sword-and-planet thing with evil overlords and mind powers, Dark Sun gives you stuff that implements those tropes. If you want to play spirit bureaucracies and kung fu, OA gives you stuff that implements those tropes. If you want to play something fairly Conan-esque, with wizards of ancient empires in a mash-up of pseudo-mediaeval European/Mediterranean/West-and-Central-Asian lands, GH is an alternative to the Hyborian Age itself. These tropes, in turn, tend to feed into the themes of the game.

This is what I mean when I talk about "using a setting".

And because they're just aspetcs of trope implementations, I don't regard the minutiae as being very important. Certainly not for their own sake.

I think this is probably also why FR has never appealed to me - I've never seen what particular trope implementations it is providing me with.
 

pemerton

Legend
The Gray Render went from being a Neutral (and possibly tameable) monster to being a generic "Let's make it Chaotic Evil because it looks scary" monster in 4e, for absolutely no reason other than the premise that if it's in the MM, it MUST be an opponent.
So the great case against 4e is that it changed the alignment of the grey render - a monster that did not exist in classic D&D, and as far as I'm aware has never had a memorable module or adventure scenario designed around it.

As for the premise that nothing can be in the 4e MM that is tameable: the MM (p 29) has stats for various sorts of bears. And in my 4e game both times a bear has been encountered - in our second session, and then a couple of years of play down the track - the PCs tamed the bear.

I guess we were doing it wrong!

If canon and details are completely irrelevant, then answer me this: WHY - up until Pathfinder - have dozens of D&D clones been released and bit the dust, if all that makes D&D D&D is the Character Classes and some generic Orcs, Goblins, etc? WHY did those other RPGs fail when, by that reasoning, they were just as good...? Clearly, some vital ingredients were missing, and I submit to you that I know what they are.
The most popular ever versions of D&D - classic D&D dating from the late 70s/early 80s (AD&D, B/X) didn't have Grey Renders.

Whatever the explanation for the popularity of D&D, the alignment of Grey Renders, and the backstory around Eladrin, has never been part of it.
 

pemerton

Legend
The point is that a character from Harondor could easily hate Gondor and want to fight against it.
That's moving pretty far from "rebels against Gondor" and more towards just working for Sauron.
How is that?
I'm not Hriston, but here is my answer: because the moral status of Gondor is not "neutral" nor up for grabs. Part of the "canon" of Middle Earth is that Gondor is a bastion of virtue holding back Sauron's evil.

Wanting to redeem Gondor is a morally permissible motive (qv Faramir). Wanting to fight it is choosing to oppose virtue and side with Sauron.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
This is, I think, at the heart of the whole debate. Not everyone agrees with this statement.

One side, as represented above, looks at a fictional world the same way they would look at the real world, with the assumption that of course outliers and non-mainstream positions of all sorts exist, because why wouldn't they? The big gains from this approach are realism (because our world is similarly full of contradictions) and arguably a fresh perspective on the source material.

Nothing I have described is an outlier or non-mainstream. Atheism is a natural mainstream function of a society that has been abandoned by the gods for hundreds of years. Rebels against Gondor is a natural main stream function of a society that has been repeatedly killed and subjugated by Gondor for hundreds of years.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
That's moving pretty far from "rebels against Gondor" and more towards just working for Sauron.
It's actually moving from "rebels against Gondor" to "rebels against Gondor". People living in a land that has been repeatedly attacked, with its citizens killed and subjugated off and on for hundreds of years would harbor resentment for Gondor. They have no need to be working for Sauron to not like Gondor.
 

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